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DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

114 points by mlforlife123 7y ago

lolc 7y ago
And here I am with a sister who thinks that vaccination for a newborn should be "weighed against the risk". The reason we don't know measles as a deadly disease anymore is because vaccination works so well!
- SamPatt 7y ago
  She's not wrong about the need to weigh against the risk. She's just wrong about assessing the risk.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    The people that talk about vaccines and risks aren’t equipped to assess risks in the first place as they don’t understand basic probability and statistics.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      I think a major part of the problem is that if you tell people that they "aren’t equipped to assess risks" then that will probably reinforce their position. Edit: I think find ways to deal with irrational views (amplified by social media) while treating the people holding the views with a degree of respect and empathy is one of the challenges of our age. NB "Authorities" who perpetrate these views when they really should know better do deserve contempt.
    - gwd 7y ago
      I 100% agree that the cost / benefit analysis in this scenario is clear-cut. However, it's also the case that "experts" are occasinally completely in left field, and when challenged by non-experts, have exactly the same "You're not equipped to make this decision" attitude. Doctors who prescribe drug after drug to elderly people, until they have functional dementia due to drugs and nothing to do with any underlying health issue. And the same thing can happen for entire fields, when one strong-minded "expert" manages to make one particular way of doing things or looking at things the "orthodox" way, and the field as a whole rejects any doubters as heretics. (There was recently an article on HN about how most educational researchers think whole-word reading is a terrible way of learning, but how most educators think that's the best way.) Diversification of decisions is one of the best defenses we have against that. Or to put it differently: There is a risk if we allow parents to make this sort of decision on behalf of their kids: that a number of parents will be fooled by charlatans into making decisions that harm their kids. But there's also a risk of not allowing parents to make this sort of decision on behalf of their kids: That a single well-placed wrong individual can make a decision which harms untold millions of children. There is certainly a time and a place for overriding parent's decisions about their children; but it should be made in circumstances where the costs of doing so are crystal clear.
  - op00to 7y ago
    It’s almost like we weigh the risk against the benefit every step of the god damned vaccine development process.
- selectivePress 7y ago
  And so she'd be one of the 6K, and you'd waltz right through it, unscathed. Sounds like it's her problem and not yours. What do you care?
- Sarki 7y ago
  This mostly comes down to the irrationality regarding risks when you're having kids. Out of my own experience, and given the worst cases scenarios you hear from it's difficult not to fear for your loved ones (and I mean you literally feel it in your loins) especially when YOUR decision can have even the slightest chance of ruining their lives. -- Edit: Please don't get me wrong, I have kids, and their vaccines are up to date (like mine). A chat with an hospital pediatrist can help, for me it's when he clearly explained that without vaccines a kid can be gone within 2 hours. And virtually it's as narrow minded as refusing to take antibiotics.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    It’s not difficult. There’s ample statistical evidence available, and super high quality resources online such as CDC if one wanted to educate themselves. It’s people being lazy and wanting to subject the world to their ego of “I’m so smart because I believe in something contrary to the mainstream or against the establishment”. There’s clear proof of fraud by the idiot that started the nonsense rumors of vaccine harm, and not a single person who knows basic math has shown risk of harm. There is no excuse, other than wanting to satisfy your own ego.
    - Sarki 7y ago
      Nope, you misread me, I clearly stated the term "irrationality". I consider myself as educated, though having your own kids and being responsible for their life and well-being is what makes you doubt vaccines, especially when you read about people developing multiple sclerosis or other neurodegenerative symptoms following a vaccination.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        The cause of the irrational behavior is the idea that one is more qualified than medical researchers in every developed country after reading a few websites about vaccine “effects”. To me, that is to satisfy one’s ego. An educated person knows where the limits of their knowledge is, and becoming a parent does not endow you with the ability to analyze vaccine efficacy, or any other subject matter.
- beagle3 7y ago
  It IS a prisoner’s dilemma of sort. If everyone around you is vaccinated, you mostly enjoy herd immunity, so the benefit is much smaller. The risks are small, and most definitely worth it from society’s point of view, and likely from a personal point of view - They are, however, harder to assess from a personal point of view. I am somewhat familiar with a case where a serious underlying autoimmune condition was apparently triggered by vaccination. It would have surely manifested at some point, but for this condition - the later it is triggered for the first time, the better the overall outcome. (The parents in these cases often believe that the condition was caused by the vaccination, rather than revealed by it - the truth is any significant provocation of the immune system might trigger it). There have also been cases where live polio and flu vaccines where not sufficiently weakened and caused the disease. It is also not helpful that most vaccine proponents discount anyone who considers risks a heretic.
  - bipson 7y ago
    The point here is the limitation "apparently". Huge part of the needless discussion about the risks of vaccines happening in well educated parts of the population are misattributed effects of vaccines. Everyone I know apparently knows someone that has a child that has a serious condition because of a vaccination. Yeah, right, if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yesterday.
    - SamPatt 7y ago
      >if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yesterday That argument is empirically false, as there have been multiple medications and vaccinations which did widespread harm. Granted, nearly all of them occurred 30+ years ago. However I don't think we should ever claim we've advanced to the point where we _know_ that there are _no_ medications or vaccinations that are causing problems we aren't aware of yet, especially given how long it might take for those problems to manifest themselves. Not an argument against vaccination at all, just an argument for intellectual humility.
      - 7y ago
- baq 7y ago
  risk of something really bad happening after a measles vaccine is something like 1:40 000. risk of going deaf after measles is 1:1000. she's absolutely right, that's why she should be begging for the vaccine.
  - cmsj 7y ago
    To be very clear, I fully support vaccination, my kids are vaccinated, as am I. Having said that, when people hear the risk of a bad reaction is 1:40000, I believe that what they think is "my kid's chances of getting this disease are lower than that, so I am making the smart choice by picking the lower risk and avoiding the vaccine risk".
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      And in some cases that's probably the rational position; even then it's still rational (and right) for the medical community to advise vaccination as they "don't care" about that one person, they care about the billions. This dichotomy lies at the heart of this issue IMO.
  - logicchains 7y ago
    By those numbers, if she thinks the chance of getting measles is less than 1/40, then if acting purely selfishly she'd prefer not to get the vaccine?
    - bluGill 7y ago
      No. If you hadn't added "she thinks" to your sentence you would be correct - but the if condition is false (the risk is worse than 1/40) and so she should get the vaccine.
      - tzs 7y ago
        Where are you getting the measles risk from? All the numbers I can find put the risk of measles in the US at a couple of orders of magnitude lower than 1/40. About 1000 cases a year in a bad year, 320 million population, 80 year lifespan give about a 1/4000 chance of getting measles sometime over your lifespan.
- Xylakant 7y ago
  it's not only that measles is in itself deadly, it also resets your immune system and makes it forget a lot of the pathogens it's met before. This leaves the person vulnerable to infections that they should be immune to: https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/measles-resets-the-immune-system-to-baby-like-state/ https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/measles-resets-the-immune-...
  - lolc 7y ago
    Interesting. Measles could be a revolutionary cure for my diabetes. Maybe I should get measles to reset my immune system. Yes I'm joking and not going to try.
- DanBC 7y ago
  She's right though, vaccination for anyone should be weighed against the risk. We spend considerable amounts of money ensuring that vaccinations are safe and effective, and we only recommend vaccination if they are safe and effective and if the very small risks (and all interventions have risks) make sense against the disease being vaccinated against. In the case of measles there are considerable risks of death or life long harm, so this balancing question is easy. Maybe we need better ways of telling people like her about how the risks are weighed up, because at the moment she has multi-millionaires (trying to sell her vitamin pills) telling her things she wants to hear and that make sense to her. Clearly we (the people who want her to vaccinate) are failing to communicate.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    I broadly agree: I think part of the problem is those in government, including on issues of healthcare, have lied in the past. Trust is easily lost and very hard to win back. You can win people back by lying more (Brexit!), short termist (advertisers, politicians) need not worry about that, but it creates even more harm down the road.
- codingdave 7y ago
  She also is not wrong because not even the CDC recommends the measles vaccine until 12 months of age. Hepatitis B is the only vaccine recommend for newborns. The rest are staged out over time, starting at 2 months.
  - cwingrav 7y ago
    I think the parent comment was implying she was not going to vaccinate until they saw risk, unrelated to CDC recommendation. Many people put off vaccines beyond what the CDC or other health agencies recommend because of misinformation that has been spread.
    - lolc 7y ago
      I don't actually know what's recommended. I was just taken aback by her "we're not sure we're going to vaccinate the child" as if that was somehow optional. At least I got her to agree to listen to a doctor about the risks.
  - loriverkutya 7y ago
    This is false information. If you are in the risk group BCG is also recommended for newborns. Source: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/bcg-tuberculosis-tb-vaccine/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/bcg-tuberculosis-... In the UK MMR is given to babies around age 1. The reason is that if their mother is vaccinated, they have the antibodies, but "These maternal antibodies decline with age and are almost all gone by the time MMR is normally given – around the age of 1 year." Source: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-vaccine/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-vaccine/ Please, read before you are posting false information.
    - codingdave 7y ago
      It is not false information, we just live in different countries, and I specifically said I was talking about the CDC. Here is their info: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...
- Scarblac 7y ago
  I mean, it should be weighed against the risk. Why not? The benefit is protection against a deadly disease, for the child and for their community, and the risk is not feeling well for a day or so. Easy answer.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
rahuldottech 7y ago
Last Week Tonight has a nice episode on Vaccines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c It explains why vaccines are important, why "taking it slow" with vaccines is a bad approach, and other important stuff. Please vaccinate yourself and your kids.
- iknowalot 7y ago
  Congo and surrounding countries have a long history of tainted vaccines. The CIA and the apartheid South African government worked very hard to poison people with numerous illnesses including infecting them with HIV using vaccine centers. I'm sure many of the operators in the area just realized HIV takes a lot longer to work than ebola, measles, plague, etc. You guys are assuming all the players involved in this region are fair and honest, major error. Some of the world's most valuable mines are being fought over, humans are collateral damage to the international orgs involved.
  - op00to 7y ago
    Proof? A quick google did not bring up the CIA, Congo, and vaccines.
    - jimclegg 7y ago
      The most recent accounts I've seen were in Cold Case Hammarskjöld (documentary). They found a few defectors/whistleblowers that had visited and worked at SAIMR's (South African Institute for Maritime Research) CIA funded labs used to synthesize these bogus vaccines, mainly HIV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLclWdK0cy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLclWdK0cy4
      - jolotriage 7y ago
        HN Commenters: "Africans have nothing to worry about with vaccines..." White SAIMR ex-agent: beware of the "'white philanthropists' coming in and opening free X to help treat Y..." Seems a mixture of ignorance, white, and first world privilege are at work here at the same time.
Gatsky 7y ago
This is just a heartbreaking, needless destruction of human life. Measles can be eradicated, there is no animal reservoir. Eradication of disease is an incredible gift to the future of humanity, and only gets harder with more population. The coming population increases in subsaharan Africa are probably going to take eradication of measles and polio off the map for a while, especially with anti-vaccine sentiment rising in Nigeria for example.
fnordsensei 7y ago
Every year, I take the vaccine against the seasonal flu, if possible. This is not primarily for myself, but for the people around me. The goal is herd immunity, that's how we win.
- tpetry 7y ago
  Flu vaccines are basically useless because the actual vaccine is based on mutations of last year.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    This is incorrect, at least in the UK. WHO provides information about which strains to use based on recent data about which flu variants are circulating. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/vaccine-selection.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/vaccine-selection.htm https://www.who.int/influenza/vaccines/virus/recommendations/2019_20_north/en/ https://www.who.int/influenza/vaccines/virus/recommendations...
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      Better than nothing but flu vaccines have a bad effectiveness compared to almost all other vaccines. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.... It still is a bit of a gamble.
      - danharaj 7y ago
        For the vast majority of people, there is no downside to getting the flu vaccine. A gamble implies there's something to lose.
        y4mi 7y ago
        By getting the shot you need to spend time and money. Insurance doesn't really change this, because if everyone did it, the premiums would be increased. (No chance of the former, so I guess that's just a tiny wager) So yeah, you always stand to lose something. It might be worth it to you though
kresten 7y ago
I have infinite sympathy for children infected with preventable diseases because adults chose not to vaccinate them, and for adults who cannot be vaccinated. Heartbreaking. I have pretty much zero sympathy for adult antivaxxers who get infected - let evolution do its thing here.
- DanBC 7y ago
  > I have pretty much zero sympathy for adult antivaxxers who get infected. Why? Some of them will have been lied to by people who have considerable amounts of money to spend on disinformation, and we (who support vaccination) have done a poor job of explaining that vaccination is safe and effective. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/majority-antivaxx-vaccine-ads-facebook-funded-by-two-organizations-study https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/majority-... https://khn.org/morning-breakout/important-donor-to-anti-vax-movement-has-been-cashing-in-on-alternatives-to-vaccines-as-measles-outbreaks-surge/ https://khn.org/morning-breakout/important-donor-to-anti-vax... We know that many people struggle to understand health information. In England we see: https://beta.nhs.uk/service-manual/content/health-literacy https://beta.nhs.uk/service-manual/content/health-literacy > More than 4 in 10 adults struggle with health content for the public and more than 6 in 10 adults struggle with health content that includes numbers and statistics. Attacking people with anti-vaccination views does not work to change their minds.
  - kresten 7y ago
    Adults are responsible. I’m not trying to change their minds.
    - MiroF 7y ago
      Most adults are just grown up children and should be treated with compassion even when they make idiotic decisions.
      - kresten 7y ago
        That would be a reasonable outlook but antivaxxers spread cult like anti scientific beliefs that endanger the lives of many people beyind the individual antivaxxers. This cult like behaviors isn’t deserving of ordinary empathy it needs to be seen for what it is and stopped. Fortunate many countries are doing this.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
I'll sound like a conspiracy theorist here but hear me out. The anti-vaxx movement is a successful underground propaganda attack by the Russians to weaken the population. They are also behind the election of unfit leaders and anti-European (read: anti-unity) sentiments, or more broadly speaking, making people argue about internal affairs so they're no longer a strong front against the outside world. Where's the state funded counter propaganda? There used to be propaganda posters that portrayed not vaccinating as un-American and / or working with the enemy.
- dexen 7y ago
  >a successful underground propaganda attack You could make the exact same argument about the ecological movements opposing nuclear power generation. Not sure if that goes along, or perhaps across, the point you are making.
  - andromeduck 7y ago
    It still strikes me as one of the greatest ironies in the last half century, that in trying to protect the environment from contamination from nuclear accidents, many encormnetalists have committed and condemned us to this path of climate change. Some even going as far as directly taking funds from big oil/coal.
    - MiroF 7y ago
      The problem is and always has been NIMBYs far more than environmentalists
- MiroF 7y ago
  Evidence? I think most of these "Russian funded propo attacks" are vastly overstated. We have our own monied interests to do that for us
  - corrigo 7y ago
    It's funny, this might be the one-in-a-million case where a conspiracy theorist actually hit the nail on the head. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infektion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infektion Of course this was in the 80's, and probably stopped now
urbanjunkie 7y ago
You ignorant cunt.
adreamingsoul 7y ago
Today, my child had their second dose of the MMR vaccine. I'm thankful for the access that we have to healthcare here in Norway. I can't imagine what it is like in the Congo, but I'm grateful that people and organizations are working hard to provide help to people in need.
- ganzuul 7y ago
  Yesterday I read about someone paying 4000 USD for an operation for their old cat. People have strange priorities. Perhaps it would be good to see what poverty is like.
  - mulmen 7y ago
    It’s easy to spend someone else’s money.
  - appleflaxen 7y ago
    I anticipate you will get a lot of criticism by people who have extremely strong emotional connections to their animal companions. And who are we to say they are wrong? The problem isn't that people care too much about their pets: it's that we don't care enough about human beings we've never met. And it's a hard problem to solve, because it's like a wetware problem, and we are hard to upgrade.
    - ganzuul 7y ago
      HN is really immature in this regard. The way I framed my post left nothing specific to pick out as objectionable but these people obviously don't even like the suggestion that their values are in question. So do I let them continue as before and be a hypocrite by valuing fake internet points more than human lives?
  - booblik 7y ago
    I am sorry, what is the point of your comment? Are you saying people are not allowed to love their pets and should let them die, and not care for them when they are sick?
aaron695 7y ago
For Fucks sake. The awful people in this world are the ones who know vaccines are important but just go on about anti-vaxxers while millions die who couldn't afford access to vaccines. Any chance we could skip bullying anti-vaxxers, it's not on topic to this article and talk about how you can get vaccines to the people in the DR Congo. And it's not drones..... probably something to do with refrigeration and money. Or hiring remote people.
jml7c5 7y ago
Unfortunately, many people in the DRC do not believe that the ebola vaccine is effective or safe (or that ebola is a real problem). [1] Fortunately, general acceptance of vaccines in the DRC is quite high: "Confidence in vaccines in general was high and most respondents believed that vaccines work (899 [90·7%, 95% CI 87·0–93·4) and are safe (852 [88·5%, 85·4–91·0])." [1] [1]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(19)30063-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... (DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(19)30063-5 https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(19)30063-5 )
mmember221 7y ago
Four years ago, I went numb from the waist down. After quite a few MRI’s, spinal tap, I was diagonsed with Multiple Sclerosis. I was on Avenox for almost 2 years, i had 1 year of monthly steroids IV, had to stop due to hip pain. Through my physiotherapist i learnt about a MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS HERBAL TREATMENT from R.H.G. (Rich Herbal Gardens) and their success rate with the treatment, i immediately started on the MS treatment, i experienced decline in major symptoms including hand tremor, back pain, difficulty walking, muscle paralysis and weakness, uncomfortable tingling and burning, fatigue, urinary retention,double vision, slurred speech difficulty swallowing, numbness. Visit ww w. richherbalgardens.c om I knew that a positive attitude is everything and to just believe, I’m in control of my life again.

114 points by mlforlife123 7y ago

lolc 7y ago

And here I am with a sister who thinks that vaccination for a newborn should be "weighed against the risk". The reason we don't know measles as a deadly disease anymore is because vaccination works so well!

SamPatt 7y ago
She's not wrong about the need to weigh against the risk. She's just wrong about assessing the risk.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  The people that talk about vaccines and risks aren’t equipped to assess risks in the first place as they don’t understand basic probability and statistics.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    I think a major part of the problem is that if you tell people that they "aren’t equipped to assess risks" then that will probably reinforce their position. Edit: I think find ways to deal with irrational views (amplified by social media) while treating the people holding the views with a degree of respect and empathy is one of the challenges of our age. NB "Authorities" who perpetrate these views when they really should know better do deserve contempt.
  - gwd 7y ago
    I 100% agree that the cost / benefit analysis in this scenario is clear-cut. However, it's also the case that "experts" are occasinally completely in left field, and when challenged by non-experts, have exactly the same "You're not equipped to make this decision" attitude. Doctors who prescribe drug after drug to elderly people, until they have functional dementia due to drugs and nothing to do with any underlying health issue. And the same thing can happen for entire fields, when one strong-minded "expert" manages to make one particular way of doing things or looking at things the "orthodox" way, and the field as a whole rejects any doubters as heretics. (There was recently an article on HN about how most educational researchers think whole-word reading is a terrible way of learning, but how most educators think that's the best way.) Diversification of decisions is one of the best defenses we have against that. Or to put it differently: There is a risk if we allow parents to make this sort of decision on behalf of their kids: that a number of parents will be fooled by charlatans into making decisions that harm their kids. But there's also a risk of not allowing parents to make this sort of decision on behalf of their kids: That a single well-placed wrong individual can make a decision which harms untold millions of children. There is certainly a time and a place for overriding parent's decisions about their children; but it should be made in circumstances where the costs of doing so are crystal clear.
- op00to 7y ago
  It’s almost like we weigh the risk against the benefit every step of the god damned vaccine development process.
selectivePress 7y ago
And so she'd be one of the 6K, and you'd waltz right through it, unscathed. Sounds like it's her problem and not yours. What do you care?
Sarki 7y ago
This mostly comes down to the irrationality regarding risks when you're having kids. Out of my own experience, and given the worst cases scenarios you hear from it's difficult not to fear for your loved ones (and I mean you literally feel it in your loins) especially when YOUR decision can have even the slightest chance of ruining their lives. -- Edit: Please don't get me wrong, I have kids, and their vaccines are up to date (like mine). A chat with an hospital pediatrist can help, for me it's when he clearly explained that without vaccines a kid can be gone within 2 hours. And virtually it's as narrow minded as refusing to take antibiotics.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  It’s not difficult. There’s ample statistical evidence available, and super high quality resources online such as CDC if one wanted to educate themselves. It’s people being lazy and wanting to subject the world to their ego of “I’m so smart because I believe in something contrary to the mainstream or against the establishment”. There’s clear proof of fraud by the idiot that started the nonsense rumors of vaccine harm, and not a single person who knows basic math has shown risk of harm. There is no excuse, other than wanting to satisfy your own ego.
  - Sarki 7y ago
    Nope, you misread me, I clearly stated the term "irrationality". I consider myself as educated, though having your own kids and being responsible for their life and well-being is what makes you doubt vaccines, especially when you read about people developing multiple sclerosis or other neurodegenerative symptoms following a vaccination.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      The cause of the irrational behavior is the idea that one is more qualified than medical researchers in every developed country after reading a few websites about vaccine “effects”. To me, that is to satisfy one’s ego. An educated person knows where the limits of their knowledge is, and becoming a parent does not endow you with the ability to analyze vaccine efficacy, or any other subject matter.
beagle3 7y ago
It IS a prisoner’s dilemma of sort. If everyone around you is vaccinated, you mostly enjoy herd immunity, so the benefit is much smaller. The risks are small, and most definitely worth it from society’s point of view, and likely from a personal point of view - They are, however, harder to assess from a personal point of view. I am somewhat familiar with a case where a serious underlying autoimmune condition was apparently triggered by vaccination. It would have surely manifested at some point, but for this condition - the later it is triggered for the first time, the better the overall outcome. (The parents in these cases often believe that the condition was caused by the vaccination, rather than revealed by it - the truth is any significant provocation of the immune system might trigger it). There have also been cases where live polio and flu vaccines where not sufficiently weakened and caused the disease. It is also not helpful that most vaccine proponents discount anyone who considers risks a heretic.
- bipson 7y ago
  The point here is the limitation "apparently". Huge part of the needless discussion about the risks of vaccines happening in well educated parts of the population are misattributed effects of vaccines. Everyone I know apparently knows someone that has a child that has a serious condition because of a vaccination. Yeah, right, if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yesterday.
  - SamPatt 7y ago
    >if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yesterday That argument is empirically false, as there have been multiple medications and vaccinations which did widespread harm. Granted, nearly all of them occurred 30+ years ago. However I don't think we should ever claim we've advanced to the point where we _know_ that there are _no_ medications or vaccinations that are causing problems we aren't aware of yet, especially given how long it might take for those problems to manifest themselves. Not an argument against vaccination at all, just an argument for intellectual humility.
    - 7y ago
baq 7y ago
risk of something really bad happening after a measles vaccine is something like 1:40 000. risk of going deaf after measles is 1:1000. she's absolutely right, that's why she should be begging for the vaccine.
- cmsj 7y ago
  To be very clear, I fully support vaccination, my kids are vaccinated, as am I. Having said that, when people hear the risk of a bad reaction is 1:40000, I believe that what they think is "my kid's chances of getting this disease are lower than that, so I am making the smart choice by picking the lower risk and avoiding the vaccine risk".
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    And in some cases that's probably the rational position; even then it's still rational (and right) for the medical community to advise vaccination as they "don't care" about that one person, they care about the billions. This dichotomy lies at the heart of this issue IMO.
- logicchains 7y ago
  By those numbers, if she thinks the chance of getting measles is less than 1/40, then if acting purely selfishly she'd prefer not to get the vaccine?
  - bluGill 7y ago
    No. If you hadn't added "she thinks" to your sentence you would be correct - but the if condition is false (the risk is worse than 1/40) and so she should get the vaccine.
    - tzs 7y ago
      Where are you getting the measles risk from? All the numbers I can find put the risk of measles in the US at a couple of orders of magnitude lower than 1/40. About 1000 cases a year in a bad year, 320 million population, 80 year lifespan give about a 1/4000 chance of getting measles sometime over your lifespan.
Xylakant 7y ago
it's not only that measles is in itself deadly, it also resets your immune system and makes it forget a lot of the pathogens it's met before. This leaves the person vulnerable to infections that they should be immune to: https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/measles-resets-the-immune-system-to-baby-like-state/ https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/measles-resets-the-immune-...
- lolc 7y ago
  Interesting. Measles could be a revolutionary cure for my diabetes. Maybe I should get measles to reset my immune system. Yes I'm joking and not going to try.
DanBC 7y ago
She's right though, vaccination for anyone should be weighed against the risk. We spend considerable amounts of money ensuring that vaccinations are safe and effective, and we only recommend vaccination if they are safe and effective and if the very small risks (and all interventions have risks) make sense against the disease being vaccinated against. In the case of measles there are considerable risks of death or life long harm, so this balancing question is easy. Maybe we need better ways of telling people like her about how the risks are weighed up, because at the moment she has multi-millionaires (trying to sell her vitamin pills) telling her things she wants to hear and that make sense to her. Clearly we (the people who want her to vaccinate) are failing to communicate.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  I broadly agree: I think part of the problem is those in government, including on issues of healthcare, have lied in the past. Trust is easily lost and very hard to win back. You can win people back by lying more (Brexit!), short termist (advertisers, politicians) need not worry about that, but it creates even more harm down the road.
codingdave 7y ago
She also is not wrong because not even the CDC recommends the measles vaccine until 12 months of age. Hepatitis B is the only vaccine recommend for newborns. The rest are staged out over time, starting at 2 months.
- cwingrav 7y ago
  I think the parent comment was implying she was not going to vaccinate until they saw risk, unrelated to CDC recommendation. Many people put off vaccines beyond what the CDC or other health agencies recommend because of misinformation that has been spread.
  - lolc 7y ago
    I don't actually know what's recommended. I was just taken aback by her "we're not sure we're going to vaccinate the child" as if that was somehow optional. At least I got her to agree to listen to a doctor about the risks.
- loriverkutya 7y ago
  This is false information. If you are in the risk group BCG is also recommended for newborns. Source: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/bcg-tuberculosis-tb-vaccine/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/bcg-tuberculosis-... In the UK MMR is given to babies around age 1. The reason is that if their mother is vaccinated, they have the antibodies, but "These maternal antibodies decline with age and are almost all gone by the time MMR is normally given – around the age of 1 year." Source: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-vaccine/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/mmr-vaccine/ Please, read before you are posting false information.
  - codingdave 7y ago
    It is not false information, we just live in different countries, and I specifically said I was talking about the CDC. Here is their info: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...
Scarblac 7y ago
I mean, it should be weighed against the risk. Why not? The benefit is protection against a deadly disease, for the child and for their community, and the risk is not feeling well for a day or so. Easy answer.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

rahuldottech 7y ago

Last Week Tonight has a nice episode on Vaccines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG_s2PCH_c It explains why vaccines are important, why "taking it slow" with vaccines is a bad approach, and other important stuff. Please vaccinate yourself and your kids.

iknowalot 7y ago
Congo and surrounding countries have a long history of tainted vaccines. The CIA and the apartheid South African government worked very hard to poison people with numerous illnesses including infecting them with HIV using vaccine centers. I'm sure many of the operators in the area just realized HIV takes a lot longer to work than ebola, measles, plague, etc. You guys are assuming all the players involved in this region are fair and honest, major error. Some of the world's most valuable mines are being fought over, humans are collateral damage to the international orgs involved.
- op00to 7y ago
  Proof? A quick google did not bring up the CIA, Congo, and vaccines.
  - jimclegg 7y ago
    The most recent accounts I've seen were in Cold Case Hammarskjöld (documentary). They found a few defectors/whistleblowers that had visited and worked at SAIMR's (South African Institute for Maritime Research) CIA funded labs used to synthesize these bogus vaccines, mainly HIV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLclWdK0cy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLclWdK0cy4
    - jolotriage 7y ago
      HN Commenters: "Africans have nothing to worry about with vaccines..." White SAIMR ex-agent: beware of the "'white philanthropists' coming in and opening free X to help treat Y..." Seems a mixture of ignorance, white, and first world privilege are at work here at the same time.

Gatsky 7y ago

This is just a heartbreaking, needless destruction of human life. Measles can be eradicated, there is no animal reservoir. Eradication of disease is an incredible gift to the future of humanity, and only gets harder with more population. The coming population increases in subsaharan Africa are probably going to take eradication of measles and polio off the map for a while, especially with anti-vaccine sentiment rising in Nigeria for example.

fnordsensei 7y ago

Every year, I take the vaccine against the seasonal flu, if possible. This is not primarily for myself, but for the people around me. The goal is herd immunity, that's how we win.

tpetry 7y ago
Flu vaccines are basically useless because the actual vaccine is based on mutations of last year.
- DanBC 7y ago
  This is incorrect, at least in the UK. WHO provides information about which strains to use based on recent data about which flu variants are circulating. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/vaccine-selection.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/vaccine-selection.htm https://www.who.int/influenza/vaccines/virus/recommendations/2019_20_north/en/ https://www.who.int/influenza/vaccines/virus/recommendations...
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    Better than nothing but flu vaccines have a bad effectiveness compared to almost all other vaccines. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.... It still is a bit of a gamble.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      For the vast majority of people, there is no downside to getting the flu vaccine. A gamble implies there's something to lose.
      - y4mi 7y ago
        By getting the shot you need to spend time and money. Insurance doesn't really change this, because if everyone did it, the premiums would be increased. (No chance of the former, so I guess that's just a tiny wager) So yeah, you always stand to lose something. It might be worth it to you though

kresten 7y ago

I have infinite sympathy for children infected with preventable diseases because adults chose not to vaccinate them, and for adults who cannot be vaccinated. Heartbreaking. I have pretty much zero sympathy for adult antivaxxers who get infected - let evolution do its thing here.

DanBC 7y ago
> I have pretty much zero sympathy for adult antivaxxers who get infected. Why? Some of them will have been lied to by people who have considerable amounts of money to spend on disinformation, and we (who support vaccination) have done a poor job of explaining that vaccination is safe and effective. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/majority-antivaxx-vaccine-ads-facebook-funded-by-two-organizations-study https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/majority-... https://khn.org/morning-breakout/important-donor-to-anti-vax-movement-has-been-cashing-in-on-alternatives-to-vaccines-as-measles-outbreaks-surge/ https://khn.org/morning-breakout/important-donor-to-anti-vax... We know that many people struggle to understand health information. In England we see: https://beta.nhs.uk/service-manual/content/health-literacy https://beta.nhs.uk/service-manual/content/health-literacy > More than 4 in 10 adults struggle with health content for the public and more than 6 in 10 adults struggle with health content that includes numbers and statistics. Attacking people with anti-vaccination views does not work to change their minds.
- kresten 7y ago
  Adults are responsible. I’m not trying to change their minds.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    Most adults are just grown up children and should be treated with compassion even when they make idiotic decisions.
    - kresten 7y ago
      That would be a reasonable outlook but antivaxxers spread cult like anti scientific beliefs that endanger the lives of many people beyind the individual antivaxxers. This cult like behaviors isn’t deserving of ordinary empathy it needs to be seen for what it is and stopped. Fortunate many countries are doing this.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

I'll sound like a conspiracy theorist here but hear me out. The anti-vaxx movement is a successful underground propaganda attack by the Russians to weaken the population. They are also behind the election of unfit leaders and anti-European (read: anti-unity) sentiments, or more broadly speaking, making people argue about internal affairs so they're no longer a strong front against the outside world. Where's the state funded counter propaganda? There used to be propaganda posters that portrayed not vaccinating as un-American and / or working with the enemy.

dexen 7y ago
>a successful underground propaganda attack You could make the exact same argument about the ecological movements opposing nuclear power generation. Not sure if that goes along, or perhaps across, the point you are making.
- andromeduck 7y ago
  It still strikes me as one of the greatest ironies in the last half century, that in trying to protect the environment from contamination from nuclear accidents, many encormnetalists have committed and condemned us to this path of climate change. Some even going as far as directly taking funds from big oil/coal.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    The problem is and always has been NIMBYs far more than environmentalists
MiroF 7y ago
Evidence? I think most of these "Russian funded propo attacks" are vastly overstated. We have our own monied interests to do that for us
- corrigo 7y ago
  It's funny, this might be the one-in-a-million case where a conspiracy theorist actually hit the nail on the head. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infektion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infektion Of course this was in the 80's, and probably stopped now

urbanjunkie 7y ago

You ignorant cunt.

adreamingsoul 7y ago

Today, my child had their second dose of the MMR vaccine. I'm thankful for the access that we have to healthcare here in Norway. I can't imagine what it is like in the Congo, but I'm grateful that people and organizations are working hard to provide help to people in need.

ganzuul 7y ago
Yesterday I read about someone paying 4000 USD for an operation for their old cat. People have strange priorities. Perhaps it would be good to see what poverty is like.
- mulmen 7y ago
  It’s easy to spend someone else’s money.
- appleflaxen 7y ago
  I anticipate you will get a lot of criticism by people who have extremely strong emotional connections to their animal companions. And who are we to say they are wrong? The problem isn't that people care too much about their pets: it's that we don't care enough about human beings we've never met. And it's a hard problem to solve, because it's like a wetware problem, and we are hard to upgrade.
  - ganzuul 7y ago
    HN is really immature in this regard. The way I framed my post left nothing specific to pick out as objectionable but these people obviously don't even like the suggestion that their values are in question. So do I let them continue as before and be a hypocrite by valuing fake internet points more than human lives?
- booblik 7y ago
  I am sorry, what is the point of your comment? Are you saying people are not allowed to love their pets and should let them die, and not care for them when they are sick?

aaron695 7y ago

For Fucks sake. The awful people in this world are the ones who know vaccines are important but just go on about anti-vaxxers while millions die who couldn't afford access to vaccines. Any chance we could skip bullying anti-vaxxers, it's not on topic to this article and talk about how you can get vaccines to the people in the DR Congo. And it's not drones..... probably something to do with refrigeration and money. Or hiring remote people.

jml7c5 7y ago

Unfortunately, many people in the DRC do not believe that the ebola vaccine is effective or safe (or that ebola is a real problem). [1] Fortunately, general acceptance of vaccines in the DRC is quite high: "Confidence in vaccines in general was high and most respondents believed that vaccines work (899 [90·7%, 95% CI 87·0–93·4) and are safe (852 [88·5%, 85·4–91·0])." [1] [1]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(19)30063-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... (DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(19)30063-5 https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(19)30063-5 )

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