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Alcohol and social bonding in humans (2018)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dang 7y agoThe author is Robin Dunbar, of Dunbar's number. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dunbar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Dunbar Past threads have shown this to be a bit of a triggering topic, but this is an interesting and substantial article. We changed the title to make it less baity, in accordance with the HN guidelines. If anyone suggests a better title (i.e. more accurate and neutral), we can change it again.
- taxicabjesus 7y ago> If anyone suggests a better title (i.e. more accurate and neutral) I think the important insight in the article is "how alcohol and social activities trigger the endorphin system in humans". I object to the article's proposition that alcohol is useful, except in controlled amounts. Two or three ounces of wine is enough, not the whole bottle. As a taxi driver, I dealt with a lot of people who had trouble with alcohol, and trouble with "social activities". I had trouble with social activities, but talking to random people in my taxi was much more useful to me than any of the drinks I've ever had. One of my most successful interventions was for the passenger whom I'd later learn had been written off by her family as a hopeless drunk. Her family and friends cared about her, but they didn't know what to do, and had their own problems to deal with. I didn't know that when I arrived at that passenger's apartment. She provided simple directions. I quickly realized we were going the drive-thru liquor store. I took a few minutes out of my day to detour to a fast food restaurant, spent a few extra minutes talking to her, and called back a few times over the next two days. Then I forgot about her... After her taxi ride, her friend called one of her sons and said, "GO SOBER UP YOUR MOTHER!" She did well for two or three months, that time. This passenger later told me she'd fallen into alcoholism because drinking "made [all her problems] go away". Prison for her 3rd DUI did not actually provide the help she needed to pull herself together. Eventually I told her daughter that what her mother really needed was to know that she had her children's support. They stepped up to take care of her. She's doing quite well now, and is useful to her children instead of a burden. Johann Hari's book [0] talks about how social connections are what people actually need to break their addictions. [0] http://chasingthescream.com/ http://chasingthescream.com/
- jimktrains2 7y ago>Two or three ounces of wine is enough Enough for what exactly? A common pour of wine is 4 - 6 oz. Also, I'm sorry you don't like alcohol, but not all use is abuse. I wouldn't even go as far as saying occasional and mild drunkenness itself is problematic. I don't disagree that in many cases substance abuse happens because of external problems and unless those are fixed relapse becomes almost inevitable. Sometimes that has nothing to do with connecting to others; there is a reason the opioid crisis is hitting rural areas that have been hit very hard economically.
- taxicabjesus 7y ago> Enough for what exactly? A common pour of wine is 4 - 6 oz. 2-3 ounces of wine is enough to "trigger the endorphin system in humans" to facilitate social interactions, for people whose endorphin systems aren't already overloaded with pain signals. People for whom 2-3 ounces is not enough can refresh their endorphin system using the drug mentioned in the article.
- rossdavidh 7y agoSo, we get a lot of "alcohol is bad" or "alcohol is good (in moderation)" from different scientists. What am I, a non-scientist, to believe? For my "null hypothesis", which I hold to unless and until a scientific consensus demonstrates otherwise, is that conditions similar to my ancestors' lifestyle is what is most likely to be what I am adapted for. I'm pretty sure my ancestors were occasional drinkers of alcohol. Of course, it would depend on my particular ancestors. If my dad or mom died of cirrhosis of the liver, I would choose differently.
- bawolff 7y agoThe conclusion i'd draw is that alcohol is complex and has good and bad aspects. Some scientists study the good parts, other the bad
- bitwize 7y agoThis is hackernews, where random commenters from the internet can dig up evidence that anything you might enjoy consuming is bad for you. About the only thing people can agree is good for you is fasting.
- topmonk 7y agoNot anymore, currently top comment on article on IF: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21888639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21888639
- non-entity 7y agoAs libertarian as this site leans otherwise, its strange to pull up threads supporting banning alcohol, drugs, etc.(not this one, but a thread on LSD a few days back) I'm not one to judge anyone for what they dont do and certainly don't buy into any of the miracle cure stuff, and respect people's decisions on what they ingrst, but most threads seem to have an overwhelmingly negative response to anything regarding alcohol or drugs.
- topmonk 7y agoMy philosophy is that if there is a great debate between two choices that never seems to be resolved, it probably doesn't matter much and do what ever is easier/makes you more happy.
- vaxman 7y agoFact: Tech careers attract many sketchy people and many young people. Alcohol is one of the few legal ways to quickly identify and filter out the union of those two sets, many of whom are the most disturbed individuals that have found their way in. Sadly, it doesn't work on those who abstain due to physical incapacity, religion or the truly psychotic. Just keep parroting expressions with an obsolete context like "free as in beer"... or "Alcohol and social bonding in humans" (as opposed to animals?) here on Hacker News..hah
- etaioinshrdlu 7y agoI really want to understand what you're saying. Can you try to rephrase?
- smolder 7y agoI read that as: alcohol is used to get employees to open up for "post-hiring interview" purposes, to get a better feel for their character. I've had people senior to me pry pretty hard into my own thoughts over alcohol at company events before, so that fits my experience.
- C1sc0cat 7y agoI think your inbuilt cultural biases are showing here
- Cyph0n 7y agoIf alcohol consumption is crucial to human bonding, how does the author explain friendship and bonding in communities where alcohol is not consumed? I have never consumed alcohol - historically for religious reasons, but now due to personal convictions - so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I am of the opinion that it’s much easier to fall into addiction and/or abuse of the drink if it’s available as an option. I am not at all condoning prohibition here; that never worked anywhere it was attempted, and never will. Rather, I am looking at this from a personal level. I am definitely open to hearing reasonable arguments for drinking, other than the social aspect, which was covered (poorly, imo) by this article.
- kylecazar 7y agoWell,it's all about your culture's relationship with it. In NYC, it can be difficult to socialize at times without alcohol because it's very ingrained in the young professional community. In Istanbul, where it isn't, perhaps it's difficult to socialize as a coffee abstainer. In neither case is it really that difficult to abstain and still socialize, but presuming you don't have a problem and can drink moderately, I can see why the benefits outweigh the negatives.
- big_chungus 7y agoAlso a non-drinker, and yeah, it really sucks to not drink in the professional American world. Not only does it make me the buzzkill, I honestly hate being around drunk people. Being drunk is really only fun when everyone's doing it together, like the adult version of campfire songs, making it hard to be the odd man out.
- wutbrodo 7y agoFor what it's worth, this isn't true for me. Whether I'm drunk or sober, I find it easier than most to socialize, with either friends or strangers. When the company I'm with is drinking, _they're_ better at being social too: having the social energy be more two-sided leads on average to evenings that are more fun.
- 7y ago
- Floegipoky 7y agoSince this article refers to einkorn bread as "grimly tasteless, rather soggy flatbread," I just wanted to say that einkorn sourdough is my favorite type of bread. Definitely worth trying!
- every 7y agoI spent 25 years in bar and restaurant with almost half that time actually behind a bar. Alcohol does indeed grease the social skids. Sometimes positively and sometimes not so much. It all depends on who is doing the imbibing and the chemistry between the various parties. Bartenders are very much attuned to these dynamics...
- jdkee 7y ago"Loneliness is a health threat in the western world, and the UK even has a dedicated minister to address the problem. How to solve it, of course, is a huge challenge, but encouraging people to get out and socialise over a few beers or a bottle of wine at the village pub may be a good place to start." Proximity, unplanned encounters and the privacy to confide with someone have been identified as key factors in making friends as an adult.[cite] I find it unfortunate to read about the closing of so many neighborhood pubs in England over the past decade or so.
- Guthur 7y agoIt's also unfortunate that what was once a perfectly accessible skill for most to build relationships without substance abuse seems to be a requirement in later life.
- travbrack 7y agoNot all use is abuse
- dirtyid 7y agoReligion / ecclesiastical institutes also served that purpose. There's many meetup tools, really no reason to still depend on pubs anymore. If you need alcohol as social lubricant, take a few shots, bring a (discreet) flask. I know there's other aspects to bar culture that's more conducive to forming relationships for some people, but I also think the reason why "local" pub culture is dying is because people finally have alternative options, though no doubt many of those options are solitary activities. Though I'm not convinced loneliness is bad in itself, or social drinking is necessarily the antidote. Plenty of people getting worse in misery loves company situations.
- lazyjones 7y agoOne has to wonder why even the author states specifically that loneliness is a problem in the "western world". Isn't it a problem elsewhere and if so, why? What does it really correlate with? Longer lifespans, smaller families, peace and security, wealth?
- thunderbong 7y agoWonderful article. Lots of interesting observations and studies cited. The last paragraph - > So, if you want to know the secret of a long and happy life, money is not the right answer. Get rid of the takeaway in front of the telly, and bin the hasty sandwich at your desk — the important thing is to take time out with people you know and talk to them over a beer or two, even that bottle of Prosecco if you really must. There’s nothing quite like a convivial evening wrapped around a pint to give you health, happiness and a sense of wellbeing.
- mapcars 7y ago>the important thing is to take time out with people you know and talk to them over a beer or two This is superficial because it does not last nor does it change your experience of life profoundly. It only useful to find comfort in a way you see the world, this is why people you know is a requirement. Strangers will destroy your fantasies in many ways. >There’s nothing quite like a convivial evening wrapped around a pint to give you health, happiness and a sense of wellbeing. If your sense of well-being is when 5 people confirm your opinions - this simply means you are still in your 20es.
- mads 7y agoI dont know.. Personally I dont really enjoy talking to other people. People used to tell me to join the gym to meet people, get out for a coffee and a drink and all that stuff, so I did, but truth is that I dont really enjoy it. I think it is a hassle and boring to talk to people. Sorry.. I used to think there was something wrong with me, since I had such a hard time fitting in, but then I realized that I am just different and I dont need all that socializing. Life got much better after that realization. I used to like drinking also for the sake of getting drunk, but that urge faded also for some reason. The socializing made me want to drink probably.
- Broken_Hippo 7y agoThe horrible thing about that last paragraph is that doing the thing - talking to folks over a beer or two - requires money. Not lots of money, but some money. It requires transportation and, if you don't have it, you shouldn't have the beer. And so on. If there is a population of folks that have trouble affording food every month, that sort of simple happiness isn't available. Money - to a point - is part of the answer.
- _def 7y agoDrugs are fun. But have nothing to do with honest friendships imho.
- joejerryronnie 7y agoDrugs are very fun but, many times, can lead to a false circle of friendship. Depending on how deep you are, you end up surrounding yourself with super shady people who you would never trust/hang out with normally but the lifestyle keeps you together. Eventually, you believe that your little circle of “friends” are the normal ones and everyone else is screwed up.
- big_chungus 7y agoThis is the whole problem; not everyone agrees. I don't care if other people want to drink or use drugs, but don't want to. When it expected in a professional setting, that becomes problematic.
- sriharis 7y agoIf only people bonded as well over tea.
- JackPoach 7y agoI enjoy drinking, but I am tired of reading stories about how alcohol or psychoactive drugs are key to whatever.
- Animats 7y agoIs getting the "connectedness index" up from 5.9 to 6.6 significant? The "article in the British Medical Journal" is here.[1] The "Whitehall study" has been tracking a group of British civil servants since the 1980s. The alcohol effect seems to be slightly above the noise level. But the level of alcohol consumption at which things start to get worse is quite low. "Alcohol consumption >14 units/week was associated with an increased risk of dementia in a linear fashion". 14 units a week is about one glass of wine a day.[2] Also, in this study alcohol consumption is self-reported, so it's probably low. [1] https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k2927 https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k2927 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_of_alcohol
- martingoodson 7y agoThe group with the highest rate of dementia was those who abstained from alcohol completely though.
- rwmj 7y agoDid they control for the recovering alcoholic abstainers?
- TomMckenny 7y agoI'm going to guess that human tolerance of alcohol has some evolutionary advantage. In addition to being a social lubricant, which seems to be critical to the species, I can imagine it's previous value was that it let us eat not-so-fresh fruit that the other beasties couldn't.
- C1sc0cat 7y agoAnd also helped reduce contamination in water which allows for larger communities to form
- spats1990 7y agoAboriginal Australians did fine despite not really having it, for ~40,000 years or more.
- jazzyjackson 7y agoAre we more tolerant of alcohol than other animals? It is a poison to us after all. There's lots of funny stories of birds eating fermented berries and acting tipsy.
- TomMckenny 7y agoWhat I'm wondering is whether our attitude toward alcohol poisoning is like that toward "hot" peppers and herbs. I understand that those last two repel broad groups of animals. So perhaps being tipsy is something other animals despise while we tolerate and even welcome it. _if_ that is the case then it opens up carbohydrates to us that other animals pass up. Maybe it's even testable in a lab.
- gexla 7y agoTaking Devil's Advocate on the article because of alcohol. You can't just instruct an alcoholic not to overdo alcohol. Bonding over a beer is fine if you are able to control your consumption (or you don't care,) but don't push it on people who you know don't drink or have drank in the past but have since quit. As Artie Lange likes to joke “People who don’t have the disease say, ‘Artie, you can have one drink, one beer, one five-dollar bet. If I put down a five-dollar bet on roulette in a casino, half an hour later, it’s beer, vodka, weed. By 11:30, I’m doing blow off a stripper’s ass... By 8 a.m. I’m running guns to Cuba.”
- tshanmu 7y agofollow the money - I am sure there would be a sponsorship hook with a large alcohol producer :)
- draw_down 7y agoCome on
- nelsonic 7y agoIs nobody going to mention that the "research" that lead to this article was funded by the Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) and it's conclusions might be biased toward portraying alcohol consumption in a favourable light? Drink more beer/wine/etc in pubs if you want to bond with people. Yes, alcohol can be a social lubricant, but there is no shortage of evidence that social bonding can/does occur without it.
- entropyneur 7y agoAlcohol's track record in my life thus far: Relationships created: 0 Relationships destroyed or severely damaged: 2 To clarify, I was not the one affected by alcohol in those 2 cases. So thanks, but no thanks.
- easymodex 7y agoAlcohol's track record in my life thus far: Relationships created: 8+ Relationships destroyed or severely damaged: 1-2 Not so bad, most of our social gatherings include a lot of alcohol, though drinking at home or by yourself is really weird.
- mads 7y agoYeah, I feel like I have to justify why I am not participating in "doing drugs", when people wonder why I wont have a drink. Very tiring and kind of helped me to avoid drinking just out of spite :P .. That weird "must be something wrong with you" attitude is pretty unique to alcohol, I would say.
- tasuki 7y agoPerhaps that explains why people who drink moderately enjoy better outcomes: they're not being penalized by others for not drinking.
- jacquesm 7y agoFlagging this. As if people did not bond socially before alcohol was invented.