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Easier said than done. To implement that I will probably need to hire a DevOps guy, and now we have all this cloud formation (or whatever your infra as code ch

Easier said than done. To implement that I will probably need to hire a DevOps guy, and now we have all this cloud formation (or whatever your infra as code choice is) code to manage now. So in reality it probably costs more (devops and more code to manage) than if I just went with a couple cheaper bare metal servers. If you are running in the cloud then you still need a devops guy same as you would if you where bare metal. In fact you will probably need _more_ devops people the deeper you get into the AWS ecosystem.

weberc2 7y ago
What are you comparing? If you’re comparing a large, HA SaaS use case with a static website on a VPS, then of course the latter requires less DevOps work, but if you hold the use cases equivalent, AWS requires much less DevOps work than bare metal. Notably, just because you’re using bare metal doesn’t mean the motivation for infra-as-code goes away; to the contrary, you need more of it because you’re now managing more services that come out-of-the box on AWS.
- xraystyle 7y ago
  Your static site would still probably be better on AWS. Whack it into an S3 bucket, put cloudfront in front of it, and you have a globally scalable, CDN-enabled static site with at least five 9's of reliability and it costs you peanuts.
ranit 7y ago
>> and now we have all this cloud formation ... code to manage The cloud formation code is (likely to be) much less than your application code. ... and if your intention and need is to have couple servers, then you don't really need any infrastructure code. If these cases, yes bare metal is much cheaper and (probably) better option.
scarface74 7y ago
I disagree. Any of our senior developers can create a CloudFormation template or use one that we already have and make minor changes and include in their repository. Every place that I have worked it’s the responsibility of the team who wrote the code to create the CI/CD pipelines.
- tudorizer 7y ago
  This is my experience too, albeit sometimes it does feel good to have an infra specialist on the team. Edge cases do happen.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    That’s what the AWS Business Support is for. But at least three of the senior engineers (including me) I feel could hold our own against any “specialists”. My experience are too many of the “specialists” are old school netops people who got one certification and treat AWS like an overpriced colo.
    - busterarm 7y ago
      AWS likes to pawn their customers off to Certified Partners for outsourced solutions. I'm a software engineer who went the specialist route because it does take real skill to do this well. Yes, I am embedded on a team of old school netops people now, but I'm in charge of all of this and I get to drag them kicking and screaming in to the modern world. Specialists are worth it if you find the right one.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        I’m a software developer/architect/team lead/single responsible individual depending on how the wind blows, but after a few years of adding AWS to my toolbelt, I think I can hold my own and I have been recruited to be on the infrastructure side. Old school netops folks are so afraid of becoming less relevant they do their best to keep control. But at least they are harmless compared to the ones that have tried to transition to the cloud. They are actively harmful costing clients and companies more with little to show for it. And no I am not young. I’m 45 and started programming in assembly in the 80s. “lift and shift” should be phase 1. Not the end goal.
        busterarm 7y ago
        I think we pretty much see eye to eye here :)
phamilton 7y ago
Datapoint: We have 2 "DevOps guys" supporting a significant AWS infrastructure. We autoscale from 200 ec2 instances at night to 700 ec2 instances during the day. We run 60+ microservices, each of which has multiple processes that run, each of which is autoscaled (we use ECS). We use Aurora (with autoscaled readers) and DynamoDB (autoscaled IOPS). We manage all of that with 2 "Devops Guys". Granted, we're a mature startup and have put a few years of investment (at the cost of 2-3 "Devops Guys") into our infra, but ultimately it doesn't take much to manage a ton of AWS infra once the tooling is in place.
- jgalt212 7y ago
  just for back of the envelope, who many customers are you able to support per ec2 instance?
  - phamilton 7y ago
    We have give or take 30M monthly active users. The instances we use are not the largest (we use 2xls) but we also incorporate spot instances as part of our autoscaling.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    WhatsApp used to be hosted on ~15 bare metal servers serving 100 million concurrent users...
    - merb 7y ago
      Before ist was possible to Share Images. BTW they used s3 dir that
    - 7y ago
ses1984 7y ago
What do you need if you're managing a significant amount of metal? No devops guys? Everything is a tradeoff. You can manage things efficiently in AWS if you do it right. You can manage metal efficiently if you do it right. You can kill your business if you do either one wrong.
ABeeSea 7y ago
One of the benefits of the cloud is that the developers should be able to easily manage their own infrastructure. After all, they should be the people most familiar with the performance profile of their service/micro service/application. They should be the ones making decisions like using Aurora vs Dynamo vs managing your own dB on vms or bare metal vs a Hadoop cluster across VMs. They should own their deployment pipeline with CI/CD. If you have a dedicated DevOps person or team on a pure cloud application you are either a very large organization that is coordinating across multiple development teams that each have their own infra. Or you have built something brittle and not entirely cloud native (eg self managed Cassandra or elastisearch on a cluster of VMs). (Third possibility is a complex micro service architecture where it’s nice to have someone purely in-charge of “the system view” of the infrastructure even with a small number of developers.)
- pnutjam 7y ago
  Sounds like a good way to get a runaway bill.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Are you saying that the developers are unable to look at a bill?
  - ABeeSea 7y ago
    Why? Do You think developers can’t consider cost/performance? Do you think engineering managers and their finance partners don’t care? Maybe I’ve gotten lucky with company choice, but the engineer who finds massive cost savings due to optimization gets recognized over someone implementing the next basic feature.
    - justincredible 7y ago
      You've gotten lucky.
bluedino 7y ago
In that case you can use Heroku or a 'Managed Cloud Experts' like Rackspace
outworlder 7y ago
> Easier said than done. To implement that I will probably need to hire a DevOps guy, and now we have all this cloud formation (or whatever your infra as code choice is) code to manage now. So in reality it probably costs more (devops and more code to manage) than if I just went with a couple cheaper bare metal servers. This does not make any sense. You don't need cloudformation or anything, you can just use a wizard and provision as many VMs (baremetal or otherwise) as you need. It's literally a form and next -> next -> next. Now that you have systems you can login to, their complexity is the same – except you won't have to care, or manage any hardware. You still have to manage those systems yourself. Keep them patched, secure, and the workloads up. It's your choice whether or not to delve deeper into the AWS ecosystem. Note that even though I said you don't need cloudformation (actually just use Terraform instead), you have a lot of power at your disposal if you do. You can't automate racking and stacking of physical servers, but you can fully automate the lifecycle of a cluster of VMs. At my job I can bring up a 40+ cluster containing many kinds of workloads, with a single butotn press. And destroy it just as easily (for non-prod). That's invaluable.
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  > Now that you have systems you can login to, their complexity is the same – except you won't have to care, or manage any hardware. Depends upon the number of servers you have. Back when I worked on several somewhat popular websites ( a handful with ~1-5mil daily unique users), we had about 40 servers and they mostly took care of themselves. Between me (primarily a developer) and the CTO we averaged maybe a single day thinking about hardware per month, and that was mostly to install new hardware rather than taking care of existing stuff. If you have this number of servers, once you have something like Ansible setup (we used cfengine back in the day, ugh), both hardware and software mostly manages itself.
empath75 7y ago
As someone who is often categorized as a devops guy, there really shouldn’t be such a role. The whole point of devops is that you have developers that can perform operations tasks.
- winfred 7y ago
  Devops means different things to different people. I'm a devops guy surrounded by devops guys and we all are operations people that develop, which day to day is completely different from a developer that performs operations.
autokad 7y ago
in 2007/2008, I managed a GIS server / website that averaged 100 hits per day, but once every couple years the website would get listed in time/cnn and would get millions of hits. I set up an EC2 instance behind a load balancer and set it to auto-scale. done. If I had to handle that bare bones, I would have had to upgrades switches, manage dozens of servers, deal with hard drive failures, etc., and most of that would be idle 99% of the time.

weberc2 7y ago

What are you comparing? If you’re comparing a large, HA SaaS use case with a static website on a VPS, then of course the latter requires less DevOps work, but if you hold the use cases equivalent, AWS requires much less DevOps work than bare metal. Notably, just because you’re using bare metal doesn’t mean the motivation for infra-as-code goes away; to the contrary, you need more of it because you’re now managing more services that come out-of-the box on AWS.

xraystyle 7y ago
Your static site would still probably be better on AWS. Whack it into an S3 bucket, put cloudfront in front of it, and you have a globally scalable, CDN-enabled static site with at least five 9's of reliability and it costs you peanuts.

ranit 7y ago

>> and now we have all this cloud formation ... code to manage The cloud formation code is (likely to be) much less than your application code. ... and if your intention and need is to have couple servers, then you don't really need any infrastructure code. If these cases, yes bare metal is much cheaper and (probably) better option.

scarface74 7y ago

I disagree. Any of our senior developers can create a CloudFormation template or use one that we already have and make minor changes and include in their repository. Every place that I have worked it’s the responsibility of the team who wrote the code to create the CI/CD pipelines.

tudorizer 7y ago
This is my experience too, albeit sometimes it does feel good to have an infra specialist on the team. Edge cases do happen.
- scarface74 7y ago
  That’s what the AWS Business Support is for. But at least three of the senior engineers (including me) I feel could hold our own against any “specialists”. My experience are too many of the “specialists” are old school netops people who got one certification and treat AWS like an overpriced colo.
  - busterarm 7y ago
    AWS likes to pawn their customers off to Certified Partners for outsourced solutions. I'm a software engineer who went the specialist route because it does take real skill to do this well. Yes, I am embedded on a team of old school netops people now, but I'm in charge of all of this and I get to drag them kicking and screaming in to the modern world. Specialists are worth it if you find the right one.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I’m a software developer/architect/team lead/single responsible individual depending on how the wind blows, but after a few years of adding AWS to my toolbelt, I think I can hold my own and I have been recruited to be on the infrastructure side. Old school netops folks are so afraid of becoming less relevant they do their best to keep control. But at least they are harmless compared to the ones that have tried to transition to the cloud. They are actively harmful costing clients and companies more with little to show for it. And no I am not young. I’m 45 and started programming in assembly in the 80s. “lift and shift” should be phase 1. Not the end goal.
      - busterarm 7y ago
        I think we pretty much see eye to eye here :)

phamilton 7y ago

Datapoint: We have 2 "DevOps guys" supporting a significant AWS infrastructure. We autoscale from 200 ec2 instances at night to 700 ec2 instances during the day. We run 60+ microservices, each of which has multiple processes that run, each of which is autoscaled (we use ECS). We use Aurora (with autoscaled readers) and DynamoDB (autoscaled IOPS). We manage all of that with 2 "Devops Guys". Granted, we're a mature startup and have put a few years of investment (at the cost of 2-3 "Devops Guys") into our infra, but ultimately it doesn't take much to manage a ton of AWS infra once the tooling is in place.

jgalt212 7y ago
just for back of the envelope, who many customers are you able to support per ec2 instance?
- phamilton 7y ago
  We have give or take 30M monthly active users. The instances we use are not the largest (we use 2xls) but we also incorporate spot instances as part of our autoscaling.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- londons_explore 7y ago
  WhatsApp used to be hosted on ~15 bare metal servers serving 100 million concurrent users...
  - merb 7y ago
    Before ist was possible to Share Images. BTW they used s3 dir that
  - 7y ago

ses1984 7y ago

What do you need if you're managing a significant amount of metal? No devops guys? Everything is a tradeoff. You can manage things efficiently in AWS if you do it right. You can manage metal efficiently if you do it right. You can kill your business if you do either one wrong.

ABeeSea 7y ago

One of the benefits of the cloud is that the developers should be able to easily manage their own infrastructure. After all, they should be the people most familiar with the performance profile of their service/micro service/application. They should be the ones making decisions like using Aurora vs Dynamo vs managing your own dB on vms or bare metal vs a Hadoop cluster across VMs. They should own their deployment pipeline with CI/CD. If you have a dedicated DevOps person or team on a pure cloud application you are either a very large organization that is coordinating across multiple development teams that each have their own infra. Or you have built something brittle and not entirely cloud native (eg self managed Cassandra or elastisearch on a cluster of VMs). (Third possibility is a complex micro service architecture where it’s nice to have someone purely in-charge of “the system view” of the infrastructure even with a small number of developers.)

pnutjam 7y ago
Sounds like a good way to get a runaway bill.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Are you saying that the developers are unable to look at a bill?
- ABeeSea 7y ago
  Why? Do You think developers can’t consider cost/performance? Do you think engineering managers and their finance partners don’t care? Maybe I’ve gotten lucky with company choice, but the engineer who finds massive cost savings due to optimization gets recognized over someone implementing the next basic feature.
  - justincredible 7y ago
    You've gotten lucky.

bluedino 7y ago

In that case you can use Heroku or a 'Managed Cloud Experts' like Rackspace

outworlder 7y ago

> Easier said than done. To implement that I will probably need to hire a DevOps guy, and now we have all this cloud formation (or whatever your infra as code choice is) code to manage now. So in reality it probably costs more (devops and more code to manage) than if I just went with a couple cheaper bare metal servers. This does not make any sense. You don't need cloudformation or anything, you can just use a wizard and provision as many VMs (baremetal or otherwise) as you need. It's literally a form and next -> next -> next. Now that you have systems you can login to, their complexity is the same – except you won't have to care, or manage any hardware. You still have to manage those systems yourself. Keep them patched, secure, and the workloads up. It's your choice whether or not to delve deeper into the AWS ecosystem. Note that even though I said you don't need cloudformation (actually just use Terraform instead), you have a lot of power at your disposal if you do. You can't automate racking and stacking of physical servers, but you can fully automate the lifecycle of a cluster of VMs. At my job I can bring up a 40+ cluster containing many kinds of workloads, with a single butotn press. And destroy it just as easily (for non-prod). That's invaluable.

bcrosby95 7y ago
> Now that you have systems you can login to, their complexity is the same – except you won't have to care, or manage any hardware. Depends upon the number of servers you have. Back when I worked on several somewhat popular websites ( a handful with ~1-5mil daily unique users), we had about 40 servers and they mostly took care of themselves. Between me (primarily a developer) and the CTO we averaged maybe a single day thinking about hardware per month, and that was mostly to install new hardware rather than taking care of existing stuff. If you have this number of servers, once you have something like Ansible setup (we used cfengine back in the day, ugh), both hardware and software mostly manages itself.

empath75 7y ago

As someone who is often categorized as a devops guy, there really shouldn’t be such a role. The whole point of devops is that you have developers that can perform operations tasks.

winfred 7y ago
Devops means different things to different people. I'm a devops guy surrounded by devops guys and we all are operations people that develop, which day to day is completely different from a developer that performs operations.

autokad 7y ago

in 2007/2008, I managed a GIS server / website that averaged 100 hits per day, but once every couple years the website would get listed in time/cnn and would get millions of hits. I set up an EC2 instance behind a load balancer and set it to auto-scale. done. If I had to handle that bare bones, I would have had to upgrades switches, manage dozens of servers, deal with hard drive failures, etc., and most of that would be idle 99% of the time.