9 ms·

After trying Sway recently I read a bunch of github issues when debugging. I was disappointed to find many the comments toxic. I’ll stick with i3 and probably

by d0ugal 7y ago

After trying Sway recently I read a bunch of github issues when debugging. I was disappointed to find many the comments toxic. I’ll stick with i3 and probably look for something different in the future. The examples that were easy to find again; https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/1207#issuecomment-298426284 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/1207#issuecomment-2984... https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/829#issuecomment-326837490 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/829#issuecomment-32683...

dijit 7y ago
idk, those examples seem justified. The second one was someone ressurecting an old issue with a request for config information that was _in the issue_. RTFM is sometimes a valid response, and if you're having an issue finding the documentation then that's a bug.
- mortdeus 7y ago
  RTFM is always a valid response when you are dealing with a lazy, spoiled society that would rather just call tech support and bother somebody who is sitting on the other side shifting through a stack of manuals in from of them that comes with the product... What surprises me are people who have the patience to wait for somebody else to tell them why their app broke, when it's much quicker dealing with problem just by going straight to the source. (pun intended)
  - bananamerica 7y ago
    RTFM is just a rude way to say "Please search the documentation before asking". If the amount of typed characters is the issue, I assume developers are more than capable of using system-wide text-expansion. In any case, even silence is better than "RTFM". If you're not in the mood to give a civil answer, take some time off. No one will notice.
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      Generally, I agree. However, we're discussing a highly customizable WM. Not GNOME or KDE. You may assume the user is technically adept, and able to read a man page. Telling them to do exactly that is fair (but I agree it can be said friendlier). Silence might be better, but it might also be worse if the reader is awaiting help.
      - dkersten 7y ago
        I often ask "stupid" questions, but I do so after having searched the documentation, google and tried everything I could think of trying. Sometimes it really is in the manual and in my frustration I overlooked it. My point is that assuming the person is just lazy is, well, an assumption and may not be true. At least a friendly "its in the manual" tells me I just overlooked it, but an unfriendly RTFM just makes me think why did I even bother wasting my time struggling. I don't have problems with stuff for the fun of it. Two days ago, I tried to get a vim plugin working. After trying the instructions over and over for about an hour and a half, I finally gave up and opened a ticket with a question that probably looks pretty lazy and dumb to someone experienced with it. Did I get an RTFM? No, it turns out there actually WAS a bug (actually, a bug and an undocumented setting). I almost didn't post out of fear of being called lazy or whatever and just give up on it, but it turns out there actually was a problem. They fixed it and I'm now a happy user and the positive experience makes me more likely to report future bugs, tell others about the tool or even contribute if I can. An "RTFM" would have driven me away forever.
        Fnoord 7y ago
        I get it that it comes across as negative, but it is partly a choice. You could assume the person is just very busy. You could assume RTFM just means Read The Fine Manual.
        bananamerica 7y ago
        The current meaning of RTFM is well established and it does not contain the word "fine"...
  - gtirloni 7y ago
    Lots of assumptions and generalizations. There are countless reasons for why these things happen.
- onli 7y ago
  RTFM is never a valid response. At the very least you point the user to the specific section of the manual. It's this philosophy that made the ubuntu support forums the most agreeable (and pretty much most popular), at least for a while. You can RTFM people, but then you show that you hate your users, and they will leave. Not only the people asking, but also others reading it. Like this example shows very well. This bad comment not only made d0ugal search for a different project, but also made sure I won't use it, and worsened my opinion of the author considerably.
  - growse 7y ago
    In my experience, "RTFM" is often a manifestation of the frustration that the person asking for help hasn't even begun to do the most basic thing to try and help themselves. It's extremely wearing having to deal with people with a problem who have apparently put precisely zero effort into figuring the problem out on their own. "RTFM" isn't always a useful response, but I have sympathy with people who express it and its friends ("Have you read the manual?", "What have you tried to do to solve this problem before asking for help?").
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      Well that's what you sign up for when you ask people to use your software.
      - roenxi 7y ago
        That foolish sway dev, angering his paying users? RTFM is not going to make for happy users, but volunteers for free projects have the luxury of being able to ignore disgruntled users. If they don't want to maximise their user count then they have the luxury of being able to do whatever they like up to and including not having a bug tracker and literally hurling abuse at people who ask them questions. We aren't entitled to professional and comprehensive support just because the project happens to look well run.
      - kelnos 7y ago
        "Ask"? Of all the open source work I've done, I never ask anyone to use it. I put it out there with the hope that others will find it useful. I never go around pushing people to use it. No one is entitled to anything, including free support. Many open source developers provide free support, but don't have the patience to deal with users who won't even do the bare minimum to help themselves.
dkersten 7y ago
Ugh I also find that really offputting. Worse still is it’s the same guy behind SourceHut. Now I need to think about whether I want to continue to use that since if I need help the last thing I want to hear is RTFM. I always do but that doesn’t mean I don’t miss things and need a pointer :(
- MayeulC 7y ago
  To be frank, drew answered me RTFM once regarding one of my sway questions. I found the answer valid, because I couldn't find the manual before. As sad as it is, many projects do not ship a man page, which makes it very difficult to find documentation. Sway has quality man pages, and I very rarely have to find someone else in a chat room or fire up the web browser to find answers. I can understand the devs' frustration: they spent a lot of time writing those up, so have people use them. Give someone an answer, you'll help him for the day. Show him the man, you'll help him for life :)
  - dkersten 7y ago
    I get it, but when I reach out for help, its because I wasn't able to figure it out myself and I likely put a significant (relatively speaking) amount of time into it. If its in the manual, it means I overlooked it and could really do with a pointer. If I'm just told RTFM, that leaves a very sour taste. I understand that devs have to deal with a lot of "dumb" questions, but that doesn't mean they have to be rude. As someone else said, silence would actually be better in this case, but a better response would be something like "hey, that's in the manual, in the blah section" because its not rude, it affirms that it is, indeed, in the manual and gives me a pointer where. Even without the last bit, it would be better. Part of good support is to acknowledge that the person has a problem, even if you can't help. If you don't want to provide support for an open source project (as in the case of the linked issues) then don't respond or at least set up a replacement to turn RTFM into something a bit more human. > I found the answer valid, because I couldn't find the manual before. How did RTFM help you find the manual if you didn't find it before, aside from affirming that there is, indeed, a manual?

by d0ugal 7y ago

dijit 7y ago

idk, those examples seem justified. The second one was someone ressurecting an old issue with a request for config information that was _in the issue_. RTFM is sometimes a valid response, and if you're having an issue finding the documentation then that's a bug.

mortdeus 7y ago
RTFM is always a valid response when you are dealing with a lazy, spoiled society that would rather just call tech support and bother somebody who is sitting on the other side shifting through a stack of manuals in from of them that comes with the product... What surprises me are people who have the patience to wait for somebody else to tell them why their app broke, when it's much quicker dealing with problem just by going straight to the source. (pun intended)
- bananamerica 7y ago
  RTFM is just a rude way to say "Please search the documentation before asking". If the amount of typed characters is the issue, I assume developers are more than capable of using system-wide text-expansion. In any case, even silence is better than "RTFM". If you're not in the mood to give a civil answer, take some time off. No one will notice.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    Generally, I agree. However, we're discussing a highly customizable WM. Not GNOME or KDE. You may assume the user is technically adept, and able to read a man page. Telling them to do exactly that is fair (but I agree it can be said friendlier). Silence might be better, but it might also be worse if the reader is awaiting help.
    - dkersten 7y ago
      I often ask "stupid" questions, but I do so after having searched the documentation, google and tried everything I could think of trying. Sometimes it really is in the manual and in my frustration I overlooked it. My point is that assuming the person is just lazy is, well, an assumption and may not be true. At least a friendly "its in the manual" tells me I just overlooked it, but an unfriendly RTFM just makes me think why did I even bother wasting my time struggling. I don't have problems with stuff for the fun of it. Two days ago, I tried to get a vim plugin working. After trying the instructions over and over for about an hour and a half, I finally gave up and opened a ticket with a question that probably looks pretty lazy and dumb to someone experienced with it. Did I get an RTFM? No, it turns out there actually WAS a bug (actually, a bug and an undocumented setting). I almost didn't post out of fear of being called lazy or whatever and just give up on it, but it turns out there actually was a problem. They fixed it and I'm now a happy user and the positive experience makes me more likely to report future bugs, tell others about the tool or even contribute if I can. An "RTFM" would have driven me away forever.
      - Fnoord 7y ago
        I get it that it comes across as negative, but it is partly a choice. You could assume the person is just very busy. You could assume RTFM just means Read The Fine Manual.
        bananamerica 7y ago
        The current meaning of RTFM is well established and it does not contain the word "fine"...
- gtirloni 7y ago
  Lots of assumptions and generalizations. There are countless reasons for why these things happen.
onli 7y ago
RTFM is never a valid response. At the very least you point the user to the specific section of the manual. It's this philosophy that made the ubuntu support forums the most agreeable (and pretty much most popular), at least for a while. You can RTFM people, but then you show that you hate your users, and they will leave. Not only the people asking, but also others reading it. Like this example shows very well. This bad comment not only made d0ugal search for a different project, but also made sure I won't use it, and worsened my opinion of the author considerably.
- growse 7y ago
  In my experience, "RTFM" is often a manifestation of the frustration that the person asking for help hasn't even begun to do the most basic thing to try and help themselves. It's extremely wearing having to deal with people with a problem who have apparently put precisely zero effort into figuring the problem out on their own. "RTFM" isn't always a useful response, but I have sympathy with people who express it and its friends ("Have you read the manual?", "What have you tried to do to solve this problem before asking for help?").
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    Well that's what you sign up for when you ask people to use your software.
    - roenxi 7y ago
      That foolish sway dev, angering his paying users? RTFM is not going to make for happy users, but volunteers for free projects have the luxury of being able to ignore disgruntled users. If they don't want to maximise their user count then they have the luxury of being able to do whatever they like up to and including not having a bug tracker and literally hurling abuse at people who ask them questions. We aren't entitled to professional and comprehensive support just because the project happens to look well run.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      "Ask"? Of all the open source work I've done, I never ask anyone to use it. I put it out there with the hope that others will find it useful. I never go around pushing people to use it. No one is entitled to anything, including free support. Many open source developers provide free support, but don't have the patience to deal with users who won't even do the bare minimum to help themselves.

dkersten 7y ago

Ugh I also find that really offputting. Worse still is it’s the same guy behind SourceHut. Now I need to think about whether I want to continue to use that since if I need help the last thing I want to hear is RTFM. I always do but that doesn’t mean I don’t miss things and need a pointer :(

MayeulC 7y ago
To be frank, drew answered me RTFM once regarding one of my sway questions. I found the answer valid, because I couldn't find the manual before. As sad as it is, many projects do not ship a man page, which makes it very difficult to find documentation. Sway has quality man pages, and I very rarely have to find someone else in a chat room or fire up the web browser to find answers. I can understand the devs' frustration: they spent a lot of time writing those up, so have people use them. Give someone an answer, you'll help him for the day. Show him the man, you'll help him for life :)
- dkersten 7y ago
  I get it, but when I reach out for help, its because I wasn't able to figure it out myself and I likely put a significant (relatively speaking) amount of time into it. If its in the manual, it means I overlooked it and could really do with a pointer. If I'm just told RTFM, that leaves a very sour taste. I understand that devs have to deal with a lot of "dumb" questions, but that doesn't mean they have to be rude. As someone else said, silence would actually be better in this case, but a better response would be something like "hey, that's in the manual, in the blah section" because its not rude, it affirms that it is, indeed, in the manual and gives me a pointer where. Even without the last bit, it would be better. Part of good support is to acknowledge that the person has a problem, even if you can't help. If you don't want to provide support for an open source project (as in the case of the linked issues) then don't respond or at least set up a replacement to turn RTFM into something a bit more human. > I found the answer valid, because I couldn't find the manual before. How did RTFM help you find the manual if you didn't find it before, aside from affirming that there is, indeed, a manual?