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America wasn’t a country yet. There was no country to betray. I’m an American, but, c’mon, a lot of people living in the, now, US saw themselves as British subj

America wasn’t a country yet. There was no country to betray. I’m an American, but, c’mon, a lot of people living in the, now, US saw themselves as British subjects. Sure he joined the revolution, but not everyone who joined the American Revolution was aligned with its goals.

mieseratte 7y ago
America had declared its independence years before his betrayal, and he threw his lot in with the Continental Army which he then betrayed.
- Supermancho 7y ago
  > America had declared its independence years before his betrayal, That's not enough to make it a "country" in practice any more than joining a startup makes someone a company man. America isn't some mythic entity that sprung out of the head of Zeus with devoted followers. > Sure he joined the revolution, but not everyone who joined the American Revolution was aligned with its goals. Given the disparity and ignorance between the population about independence, it's very likely the philosophical derivations were innumerable but aligned somewhere along "for it", "against it", "indifferent while it still suits me". This is basically the plot for The Patriot - ie it would follow that if the Americans had won a battle and executed wounded British soldiers, then conscripted/shot his sons, the protagonist's motivations would be the same for the opposing side he ended up on.
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    The United States had its own government, the Continental Congress, and declared its independence in 1776. It was very much a country, albeit an embattled one. The population wasn't ignorant about the implications of going to war with the world's largest empire. Many of them were veterans of the French-Indian war.
    - Retric 7y ago
      They did some things that countries do in 1776, but failed to do others for example a national court system. I think the usual description in such situations is to say they had a government, as it’s not uncommon historically for things like governments in exile to exist. That said as the colonies had been doing stuff like enforcing laws and collecting taxes it’s more reasonable to call them a collection of governments than say the United States existed as a country in 1776.
      - jcranmer 7y ago
        One of the chief demands of the war was to force the Parliament and Britain to deal with the Continental Congress as a whole, instead of the several colonies individually. It was also understood throughout the war that the Continental Congress had the exclusive right to represent the Americans in foreign affairs. It's hard to draw a firm line between polities that constitute a "country" and those that are supranational organizations. But the Articles of Confederation's version of Congress seems to clearly be classifiable as "country"--it's further on the country side of the spectrum than, say, the EU.
        Retric 7y ago
        The EU has Diplomats, treaties with other nations, laws and a court system, a shared and enforced border, leadership, an assembly, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ambassadors_of_the_European_Union_to_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ambassadors_of_the_E..., https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_118238.pdf https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_... I think it’s clearly more country like than the US was in 1776, and still not a country. Though as you say, it’s not exactly a clear line in the sand.
        jcranmer 7y ago
        As I noted, Congress was empowered with the sole authority to handle international relations: the states (e.g., Virginia) couldn't enter into an international agreement. That's not true of the European countries vis-a-vis the EU.
  - ARandomerDude 7y ago
    You really shouldn't learn your "history" from dramatic period films. Especially regarding something as recent and well documented as America in the late 1700s.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    I don’t feel your metaphor quite fits, and there is no one definition of a country - especially not for the time period. You can play semantic games about whether the nation was a nation at the point Arnold betrayed it, but he made a conscious decision to betray the Continental Army so really this is just splitting semantic hairs. The man is the quintessential turncoat.
  - tracker1 7y ago
    Then what, by your own definition makes, lets say, France a country? Wouldn't it still be a territory of WWII Germany? At what point DID the USA become a separate country in your mind then?
duxup 7y ago
This seems like a strange thing to argue about. Let's say it wasn't a country, does that change anything? Didn't he betray something, someone? The question is still the same.

mieseratte 7y ago

America had declared its independence years before his betrayal, and he threw his lot in with the Continental Army which he then betrayed.

Supermancho 7y ago
> America had declared its independence years before his betrayal, That's not enough to make it a "country" in practice any more than joining a startup makes someone a company man. America isn't some mythic entity that sprung out of the head of Zeus with devoted followers. > Sure he joined the revolution, but not everyone who joined the American Revolution was aligned with its goals. Given the disparity and ignorance between the population about independence, it's very likely the philosophical derivations were innumerable but aligned somewhere along "for it", "against it", "indifferent while it still suits me". This is basically the plot for The Patriot - ie it would follow that if the Americans had won a battle and executed wounded British soldiers, then conscripted/shot his sons, the protagonist's motivations would be the same for the opposing side he ended up on.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  The United States had its own government, the Continental Congress, and declared its independence in 1776. It was very much a country, albeit an embattled one. The population wasn't ignorant about the implications of going to war with the world's largest empire. Many of them were veterans of the French-Indian war.
  - Retric 7y ago
    They did some things that countries do in 1776, but failed to do others for example a national court system. I think the usual description in such situations is to say they had a government, as it’s not uncommon historically for things like governments in exile to exist. That said as the colonies had been doing stuff like enforcing laws and collecting taxes it’s more reasonable to call them a collection of governments than say the United States existed as a country in 1776.
    - jcranmer 7y ago
      One of the chief demands of the war was to force the Parliament and Britain to deal with the Continental Congress as a whole, instead of the several colonies individually. It was also understood throughout the war that the Continental Congress had the exclusive right to represent the Americans in foreign affairs. It's hard to draw a firm line between polities that constitute a "country" and those that are supranational organizations. But the Articles of Confederation's version of Congress seems to clearly be classifiable as "country"--it's further on the country side of the spectrum than, say, the EU.
      - Retric 7y ago
        The EU has Diplomats, treaties with other nations, laws and a court system, a shared and enforced border, leadership, an assembly, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ambassadors_of_the_European_Union_to_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ambassadors_of_the_E..., https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_118238.pdf https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_... I think it’s clearly more country like than the US was in 1776, and still not a country. Though as you say, it’s not exactly a clear line in the sand.
        jcranmer 7y ago
        As I noted, Congress was empowered with the sole authority to handle international relations: the states (e.g., Virginia) couldn't enter into an international agreement. That's not true of the European countries vis-a-vis the EU.
- ARandomerDude 7y ago
  You really shouldn't learn your "history" from dramatic period films. Especially regarding something as recent and well documented as America in the late 1700s.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  I don’t feel your metaphor quite fits, and there is no one definition of a country - especially not for the time period. You can play semantic games about whether the nation was a nation at the point Arnold betrayed it, but he made a conscious decision to betray the Continental Army so really this is just splitting semantic hairs. The man is the quintessential turncoat.
- tracker1 7y ago
  Then what, by your own definition makes, lets say, France a country? Wouldn't it still be a territory of WWII Germany? At what point DID the USA become a separate country in your mind then?

duxup 7y ago

This seems like a strange thing to argue about. Let's say it wasn't a country, does that change anything? Didn't he betray something, someone? The question is still the same.