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“Because it’s the law” is not a moral argument, it’s an excuse. All manner of immoral deeds can be justified by legal means. In the words of MLK: “One has a mor

“Because it’s the law” is not a moral argument, it’s an excuse. All manner of immoral deeds can be justified by legal means. In the words of MLK: “One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”. You could argue that the law is just, but falling back to “It’s the law” is intellectual laziness.

throwaway156503 7y ago
So further increasing tax burden on American citizens by allowing unlawful migration, when they already bring in 1 million plus lawfully and have been for the last decade, is morally just? Their illegal immigration problem is literally an order of magnitude larger. Think about that for a second: 10 times more unlawful migration occurs in their country. "It's immoral" is even more intellectually dishonest: you're just calling it bad.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  I think a significant issue with this is how ICE has been enforcing the law. It has been argued that human rights offenses have been happening on a large scale, as committed by ICE. That is to say: It's difficult to say that ICE is upholding the law by committing alleged crimes against humanity. Unfortunately, ICE also has large-scale immunity to being investigate for these alleged crimes, leaving the public with no other avenues to uncover the truth besides the court of public opinion- their morals.
  - wolco 7y ago
    If they are enforcing harshly it might be difficult for them to find and remove people. Ideally they need to work with the community. The problem is the community and certain safe cities make their jobs more difficult because they don't agree with the policy. The smartest route would be to target businesses charging them additional taxes. Use that money to support the legal route by increasing limits and make that path more attractive.
- gnarmis 7y ago
  For one, this is not as one-sided and simple as "X is a tax burden". The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."[1] Unauthorized immigrants create demand for goods and services[10] while an estimated 50 to 75 percent pay taxes.[9] Due to cheaper labor, they contribute to lower prices in the industries where they work, such as agriculture, restaurants, and construction.[2] [1] https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-... [2] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-co... Also, legal immigration just doesn't work well as a policy today. There's this perception that there's a line that people should just get in, but actually that process has been jammed up and there's active efforts to sabotage, with rhetorical tricks like claiming family immigration includes more than just immediate family (parents, spouse, children, only, not uncles and nieces etc), and silently walling off by extending processing times to multiple years, to the way quotas work -- same level regardless of size of country. But more to the point, talk about morality when noticing how some vilify refugees and asylum seekers, and don't learn from history, like with WW2 refusals of refugee jewish people from Europe, which led to the 1951 Refugee Convention. Want to practically and cheaply address illegal immigration? Maybe consider actually solving systemic issues like issues with legal immigation instead of throwing refugees and children in cages perhaps? Sorry but where there's asylum seekers caged and cases of sexual abuse and abuse of power and lack of oversight and cases of deaths, and when there's such a clear understanding of the real issues that could be improved that people just conveniently set aside, it's clear what the dictates of morality are in my mind.
SilasX 7y ago
GP wasn't falling back to "it's the law", but expressing skepticism that enforcement of immigration controls constitutes one of those unjust laws, which seems to be on firm ground, esp given that every country on earth does it.
- empath75 7y ago
  Not every country is putting children into cages.
madengr 7y ago
I say the same about gun laws; they are immoral and should be disobeyed. At least guns are a constitutionally protected right, unlike immigration. Perhaps common ground could be found. I’d favor getting rid of all immigration laws if we can get rid of all gun laws.
tomohawk 7y ago
Is it moral for citizens of this country to have their jobs taken away by people coming here illegally? I know several this has happened to, and who can no longer provide for their families. Where is your righteous indignation? Is it moral for people who are working with the legal processes to immigrate to have others flout the law? Are you going to stand up and protect their rights? Is it moral for people who are not citizens to come to our country and commit document fraud? To avail themselves of our safety net that we pay for? Our schools that we pay for? Why should citizens have to compete for these services against people who have not paid for them, who have jumped the line? What moral right does someone have to make a claim on our jobs, our resources? On the other hand, our government has a moral responsibility to protect the rights of the citizens of this country. To protect our jobs, our way of life.
- orwin 7y ago
  This is really off-topic. He tought that ICE actions are immoral, therefore helping them is immoral, and decided to remove his FREE (as in freedom) software from his github account. This has nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration. Btw i'll stay off-topic with you: the waiting list for legal immigration is more than 20 year if you're from Mexico, up to 60 if its for familly reasons (so a son, a daughter, a wife or parents). This have some interesting effects (if the green card holder of the family die, what happen to those that remains, even if they lived in the US for 20 years?) And what about the companies that hire illegal immigrants? Why are the fines so small. If you want to prevent illegal immigrant to "take away jobs", simple: higher fines for companies and incentives for illegal immigrants to denounce the company they are working for. This should do the job just fine.

throwaway156503 7y ago

So further increasing tax burden on American citizens by allowing unlawful migration, when they already bring in 1 million plus lawfully and have been for the last decade, is morally just? Their illegal immigration problem is literally an order of magnitude larger. Think about that for a second: 10 times more unlawful migration occurs in their country. "It's immoral" is even more intellectually dishonest: you're just calling it bad.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
I think a significant issue with this is how ICE has been enforcing the law. It has been argued that human rights offenses have been happening on a large scale, as committed by ICE. That is to say: It's difficult to say that ICE is upholding the law by committing alleged crimes against humanity. Unfortunately, ICE also has large-scale immunity to being investigate for these alleged crimes, leaving the public with no other avenues to uncover the truth besides the court of public opinion- their morals.
- wolco 7y ago
  If they are enforcing harshly it might be difficult for them to find and remove people. Ideally they need to work with the community. The problem is the community and certain safe cities make their jobs more difficult because they don't agree with the policy. The smartest route would be to target businesses charging them additional taxes. Use that money to support the legal route by increasing limits and make that path more attractive.
gnarmis 7y ago
For one, this is not as one-sided and simple as "X is a tax burden". The Congressional Budget Office reported in 2007 that "the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to them" but "in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."[1] Unauthorized immigrants create demand for goods and services[10] while an estimated 50 to 75 percent pay taxes.[9] Due to cheaper labor, they contribute to lower prices in the industries where they work, such as agriculture, restaurants, and construction.[2] [1] https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-... [2] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-co... Also, legal immigration just doesn't work well as a policy today. There's this perception that there's a line that people should just get in, but actually that process has been jammed up and there's active efforts to sabotage, with rhetorical tricks like claiming family immigration includes more than just immediate family (parents, spouse, children, only, not uncles and nieces etc), and silently walling off by extending processing times to multiple years, to the way quotas work -- same level regardless of size of country. But more to the point, talk about morality when noticing how some vilify refugees and asylum seekers, and don't learn from history, like with WW2 refusals of refugee jewish people from Europe, which led to the 1951 Refugee Convention. Want to practically and cheaply address illegal immigration? Maybe consider actually solving systemic issues like issues with legal immigation instead of throwing refugees and children in cages perhaps? Sorry but where there's asylum seekers caged and cases of sexual abuse and abuse of power and lack of oversight and cases of deaths, and when there's such a clear understanding of the real issues that could be improved that people just conveniently set aside, it's clear what the dictates of morality are in my mind.

SilasX 7y ago

GP wasn't falling back to "it's the law", but expressing skepticism that enforcement of immigration controls constitutes one of those unjust laws, which seems to be on firm ground, esp given that every country on earth does it.

empath75 7y ago
Not every country is putting children into cages.

madengr 7y ago

I say the same about gun laws; they are immoral and should be disobeyed. At least guns are a constitutionally protected right, unlike immigration. Perhaps common ground could be found. I’d favor getting rid of all immigration laws if we can get rid of all gun laws.

tomohawk 7y ago

Is it moral for citizens of this country to have their jobs taken away by people coming here illegally? I know several this has happened to, and who can no longer provide for their families. Where is your righteous indignation? Is it moral for people who are working with the legal processes to immigrate to have others flout the law? Are you going to stand up and protect their rights? Is it moral for people who are not citizens to come to our country and commit document fraud? To avail themselves of our safety net that we pay for? Our schools that we pay for? Why should citizens have to compete for these services against people who have not paid for them, who have jumped the line? What moral right does someone have to make a claim on our jobs, our resources? On the other hand, our government has a moral responsibility to protect the rights of the citizens of this country. To protect our jobs, our way of life.

orwin 7y ago
This is really off-topic. He tought that ICE actions are immoral, therefore helping them is immoral, and decided to remove his FREE (as in freedom) software from his github account. This has nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration. Btw i'll stay off-topic with you: the waiting list for legal immigration is more than 20 year if you're from Mexico, up to 60 if its for familly reasons (so a son, a daughter, a wife or parents). This have some interesting effects (if the green card holder of the family die, what happen to those that remains, even if they lived in the US for 20 years?) And what about the companies that hire illegal immigrants? Why are the fines so small. If you want to prevent illegal immigrant to "take away jobs", simple: higher fines for companies and incentives for illegal immigrants to denounce the company they are working for. This should do the job just fine.