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It's a little surprising that even with a two-speed Gearbox the Taycan has neither better range nor low range 0-60 acceleration than the Tesla P100D (which has

It's a little surprising that even with a two-speed Gearbox the Taycan has neither better range nor low range 0-60 acceleration than the Tesla P100D (which has the same size battery). Obviously spec comparisons aren't the whole story and the handling and high-range acceleration may be better on the Taycan. Looking forward to seeing more comparisons and already glad to see more EV models in this category. Edited incorrect comment about top speed.

mrtksn 7y ago
I believe they just didn’t give the option to wreck your car by overclocking. Their selling point is repeatability, so overloading the systems is not part of the Taycan experience. Probably it’s possible to push the car to higher performance and risk performance degradation later on as with Tesla. Would be fun when people start playing around with these cars’ systems.
- 19870213 7y ago
  Porche appears to be claiming that one of the features of the Taycan is repeated launch control 0-60s without overheating or other problems that Telsa is warning people about when you use ludicrous mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU
  - InTheArena 7y ago
    That was a issue with the Model S, not with the P3D. I suspect that when they switch over the S to the new style batteries, it goes away.
    - kenhwang 7y ago
      But by switching over to the Model 3 powertrain, Tesla will lose their 0-60 crown. The 3 might have better cooling motors, batteries, and efficiency, but the S launches faster despite being much heavier. So Tesla gets to pick whether they want a Model S that doesn't overheat, or a Model S that's slower to 60 than a Taycan.
milkytron 7y ago
According to the article: > It’s programmed to shift between its two speeds at 43 mph, though the computer can be programmed to make the change at different points based on the route, topography, or the distance the driver hopes to cover before plugging in. I wonder if that shift point has anything to do with the slower acceleration. I'd imagine it would make a small difference. As for the top speed, I believe Tesla is limited to 155mph and the Taycan is reported to be limited at 161mph. So the Taycan is actually faster, but I'm not sure how much it matters since both are limited by the software.
- minhazm 7y ago
  Model S top speed is 163 mph.
Mikeb85 7y ago
Porsches have never really been about straightline speed. Always about overall performance and a sports-car feeling. I'm guessing they optimized things like power, gearing and weight placement to offer good acceleration through a range of speeds with amazing handling and decent range at speed.
- rconti 7y ago
  True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. I'm wondering what we're missing here. 5% efficiency improvement at high speeds isn't anything to write home about today. The transmission is a known quantity -- it's just gears, it won't get more efficient as they develop it. The efficiency of the whole system (battery/drivetrain/regen/motor/aero/etc) can be optimized quite a bit going forward, but if the 2-speed transmission will only ever get us a 5% increase, I'm not sure it's worth the added weight and complexity. Obviously Porsche knows what they're doing, and it may be about thermal management on the Autobahn more than about outright efficiency, but I'm skeptical. If this were 2010 I'd say "yeah, obviously Porsche knows something about building a real sedan that you can take on a real highway trip, Tesla has no idea what they're doing". But, having produced actual sedans that actually work, and Porsche going with a more complicated system for 5%.. I don't know what I'm missing.
  - elonismycopilot 7y ago
    >True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. There isn't a single published metric in which the Performance Model S doesn't trounce the Taycan.
    - Neil44 7y ago
      How about 0-60 or 1/4 mile where you haven’t spent 10 minutes warming the batteries first?
      - 7y ago
jason46 7y ago
I've not done a whole lot of research but Tesla has it figured it out, compare a Tesla in power and range with the BMW i8. Maybe Porsche can make a better showing than their German counterpart.
- zby 7y ago
  Porsche is German too.
trhway 7y ago
>has neither better range any additional gear is an additional loss of efficiency. One gear engagement results in up to 10% of loss.
dragontamer 7y ago
> It's a little surprising that even with a two-speed Gearbox the Taycan has neither better range nor low range 0-60 acceleration than the Tesla P100D (which has the same size battery). 0-60 times probably don't matter on the track. Its probably more important to optimize the 60 to 120mph time, which is where the torque of a (single gear) electric motor begins to taper off. I bet that Taycan has superior 60-to-120mph times than any gearbox-free design, which would lead to superior track performance. Especially on a track as big as Nurburgring. Even on highway driving, 0-60 times kind of don't matter as much as 30-60 times. (Aka: merging into a highway). The only reason to push 0-60 times is for drag-racing really.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  > The only reason to push 0-60 times is for drag-racing really. Wat? Most people care about accelerating from a standstill to the average legal speed limits. 0-60 captures that perfectly. It's incredibly relevant to the general public's driving patterns.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    People rarely do a full power 0-60 with a car that can do it under 5 seconds. More likely they go from 30-60 or similar.
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      When a car does it silently without being overtly antisocial they do it far more often.
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        Leaving all the other cars next to you in the dust is quite antisocial behavior actually. For the most part, I want to accelerate with everyone else when that green light goes off (except for Trucks: I wanna leave Trucks in the dust and get away from them ASAP). The 30mph to 60mph acceleration of off-ramp into freeway cruising speed however, is pretty important. A lot of things are going on when I merge onto a freeway, so I'd like to make sure I can accelerate in an adequate amount of time: to the point where I've (occasionally) downshift to 2nd, even in standard traffic, to get to 60mph asap.
jsight 7y ago
I think this is a benefit only at higher speeds, tbh. The Tesla single speed setup seems to be really tuned towards low end acceleration, which admittedly is a logical thing to tune for in a premium family sedan. We've already seen some pretty good hints that the next Tesla Roadster may have at least a two speed gearbox, probably for similar reasons.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  > The Tesla single speed setup seems to be really tuned towards low end acceleration, which admittedly is a logical thing to tune for in a premium family sedan. It's probably actually tuned for range/consumption. The Taycan gets roughly 2/3 the range of a Model S despite better aerodynamics and almost the same battery size. We'll see what EV drivers value more, track performance or range.
mtw 7y ago
Porsche are experts in transmissions and gearboxes, but are starting (almost) from scratch for batteries. Give them a few years, they'll catch on.
- m463 7y ago
  I suspect it might be motors too. Why do they even need gears? I can see why we need differentials (until we have one motor per wheel), but can't gears be done in some electronic way with clever arrangements of motor For example, the tesla has ~10:1 reduction ratio gearing, but I wonder if there's a clever way of rearranging the poles/coils of the motor, maybe like a crankshaft, so you get the best torque matched to the rpm?
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > Why do they even need gears? electric motors don't actually have flat torque curves. they make peak torque at zero rpm and then gradually decrease. the curve is much smoother than an ICE, but it's still possible to increase the performance of the engine by keeping it in an optimal rpm range provided you don't add too much weight and/or power loss through the transmission.
- theluketaylor 7y ago
  They have built the 918 hybrid hypercar and a number of phev versions of their production cars that are faster than the pure ICE versions. The hybrid 919 le mans winner is also a triumph. I think porsche has been developing electric expertise better than just about any other established brand, but they are focused on charging speed and consistent performance rather than straight range.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Porsche is joining Formula E next season so I imagine they will get up to speed pretty quickly.
clouddrover 7y ago
Some things Porsche has done with the Taycan which contrast with Teslas are: - Launch repeatability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU - A 7:42 lap time at the Nürburgring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg - Travelling 2,129 miles in 24 hours: https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-endurance/ https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-en...

mrtksn 7y ago

I believe they just didn’t give the option to wreck your car by overclocking. Their selling point is repeatability, so overloading the systems is not part of the Taycan experience. Probably it’s possible to push the car to higher performance and risk performance degradation later on as with Tesla. Would be fun when people start playing around with these cars’ systems.

19870213 7y ago
Porche appears to be claiming that one of the features of the Taycan is repeated launch control 0-60s without overheating or other problems that Telsa is warning people about when you use ludicrous mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU
- InTheArena 7y ago
  That was a issue with the Model S, not with the P3D. I suspect that when they switch over the S to the new style batteries, it goes away.
  - kenhwang 7y ago
    But by switching over to the Model 3 powertrain, Tesla will lose their 0-60 crown. The 3 might have better cooling motors, batteries, and efficiency, but the S launches faster despite being much heavier. So Tesla gets to pick whether they want a Model S that doesn't overheat, or a Model S that's slower to 60 than a Taycan.

milkytron 7y ago

According to the article: > It’s programmed to shift between its two speeds at 43 mph, though the computer can be programmed to make the change at different points based on the route, topography, or the distance the driver hopes to cover before plugging in. I wonder if that shift point has anything to do with the slower acceleration. I'd imagine it would make a small difference. As for the top speed, I believe Tesla is limited to 155mph and the Taycan is reported to be limited at 161mph. So the Taycan is actually faster, but I'm not sure how much it matters since both are limited by the software.

minhazm 7y ago
Model S top speed is 163 mph.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Porsches have never really been about straightline speed. Always about overall performance and a sports-car feeling. I'm guessing they optimized things like power, gearing and weight placement to offer good acceleration through a range of speeds with amazing handling and decent range at speed.

rconti 7y ago
True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. I'm wondering what we're missing here. 5% efficiency improvement at high speeds isn't anything to write home about today. The transmission is a known quantity -- it's just gears, it won't get more efficient as they develop it. The efficiency of the whole system (battery/drivetrain/regen/motor/aero/etc) can be optimized quite a bit going forward, but if the 2-speed transmission will only ever get us a 5% increase, I'm not sure it's worth the added weight and complexity. Obviously Porsche knows what they're doing, and it may be about thermal management on the Autobahn more than about outright efficiency, but I'm skeptical. If this were 2010 I'd say "yeah, obviously Porsche knows something about building a real sedan that you can take on a real highway trip, Tesla has no idea what they're doing". But, having produced actual sedans that actually work, and Porsche going with a more complicated system for 5%.. I don't know what I'm missing.
- elonismycopilot 7y ago
  >True, and the Taycan may well be a better car in many ways. But a discussion of the gearbox has nothing to do with handling or sports car feeling. There isn't a single published metric in which the Performance Model S doesn't trounce the Taycan.
  - Neil44 7y ago
    How about 0-60 or 1/4 mile where you haven’t spent 10 minutes warming the batteries first?
    - 7y ago

jason46 7y ago

I've not done a whole lot of research but Tesla has it figured it out, compare a Tesla in power and range with the BMW i8. Maybe Porsche can make a better showing than their German counterpart.

zby 7y ago
Porsche is German too.

trhway 7y ago

>has neither better range any additional gear is an additional loss of efficiency. One gear engagement results in up to 10% of loss.

dragontamer 7y ago

> It's a little surprising that even with a two-speed Gearbox the Taycan has neither better range nor low range 0-60 acceleration than the Tesla P100D (which has the same size battery). 0-60 times probably don't matter on the track. Its probably more important to optimize the 60 to 120mph time, which is where the torque of a (single gear) electric motor begins to taper off. I bet that Taycan has superior 60-to-120mph times than any gearbox-free design, which would lead to superior track performance. Especially on a track as big as Nurburgring. Even on highway driving, 0-60 times kind of don't matter as much as 30-60 times. (Aka: merging into a highway). The only reason to push 0-60 times is for drag-racing really.

newnewpdro 7y ago
> The only reason to push 0-60 times is for drag-racing really. Wat? Most people care about accelerating from a standstill to the average legal speed limits. 0-60 captures that perfectly. It's incredibly relevant to the general public's driving patterns.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  People rarely do a full power 0-60 with a car that can do it under 5 seconds. More likely they go from 30-60 or similar.
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    When a car does it silently without being overtly antisocial they do it far more often.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      Leaving all the other cars next to you in the dust is quite antisocial behavior actually. For the most part, I want to accelerate with everyone else when that green light goes off (except for Trucks: I wanna leave Trucks in the dust and get away from them ASAP). The 30mph to 60mph acceleration of off-ramp into freeway cruising speed however, is pretty important. A lot of things are going on when I merge onto a freeway, so I'd like to make sure I can accelerate in an adequate amount of time: to the point where I've (occasionally) downshift to 2nd, even in standard traffic, to get to 60mph asap.

jsight 7y ago

I think this is a benefit only at higher speeds, tbh. The Tesla single speed setup seems to be really tuned towards low end acceleration, which admittedly is a logical thing to tune for in a premium family sedan. We've already seen some pretty good hints that the next Tesla Roadster may have at least a two speed gearbox, probably for similar reasons.

lazyjones 7y ago
> The Tesla single speed setup seems to be really tuned towards low end acceleration, which admittedly is a logical thing to tune for in a premium family sedan. It's probably actually tuned for range/consumption. The Taycan gets roughly 2/3 the range of a Model S despite better aerodynamics and almost the same battery size. We'll see what EV drivers value more, track performance or range.

mtw 7y ago

Porsche are experts in transmissions and gearboxes, but are starting (almost) from scratch for batteries. Give them a few years, they'll catch on.

m463 7y ago
I suspect it might be motors too. Why do they even need gears? I can see why we need differentials (until we have one motor per wheel), but can't gears be done in some electronic way with clever arrangements of motor For example, the tesla has ~10:1 reduction ratio gearing, but I wonder if there's a clever way of rearranging the poles/coils of the motor, maybe like a crankshaft, so you get the best torque matched to the rpm?
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > Why do they even need gears? electric motors don't actually have flat torque curves. they make peak torque at zero rpm and then gradually decrease. the curve is much smoother than an ICE, but it's still possible to increase the performance of the engine by keeping it in an optimal rpm range provided you don't add too much weight and/or power loss through the transmission.
theluketaylor 7y ago
They have built the 918 hybrid hypercar and a number of phev versions of their production cars that are faster than the pure ICE versions. The hybrid 919 le mans winner is also a triumph. I think porsche has been developing electric expertise better than just about any other established brand, but they are focused on charging speed and consistent performance rather than straight range.
threeseed 7y ago
Porsche is joining Formula E next season so I imagine they will get up to speed pretty quickly.

clouddrover 7y ago

Some things Porsche has done with the Taycan which contrast with Teslas are: - Launch repeatability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9kokeyxGU - A 7:42 lap time at the Nürburgring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg - Travelling 2,129 miles in 24 hours: https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-endurance/ https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-en...