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> It's a common social technique among adults with authority to frame requests as a question Is that somehow locale specific? I've never had people ask me to d

by nyir 7y ago

> It's a common social technique among adults with authority to frame requests as a question Is that somehow locale specific? I've never had people ask me to do something like that until I had interactions with US-based folks. Personally I find it very odd to phrase it like that and it basically achieves the complete opposite of that intent (so I've to actively ignore it and read it as the actual assignment that it was meant as).

mikeash 7y ago
Politeness is extremely culture and context dependent.
mlyle 7y ago
Yes, it's extremely locale specific. When dealing with different cultural contexts, it's easy to make both sides vaguely uncomfortable and confused. We all have a set of social tools that are used towards specific ends, and we have specific responses imagined. When the responses are far outside our expectation, we get viscerally uncomfortable and have to work to adapt-- and usually do so imperfectly. Ever see the stereotypical interaction-- where person A from a culture where you stand closer to talk talks to person B, who expects a longer distance? It's relatively common to see person A occasionally take a step towards person B, and person B occasionally step backwards and over a 15 minute conversation they back down the hall--- I'm sure both people are subtly uncomfortable and probably don't even consciously understand why.
- inimino 7y ago
  > I'm sure both people are subtly uncomfortable and probably don't even consciously understand why. And if only one of them becomes consciously aware of it that is enough to break the cycle. Sometimes all you need is a little awareness.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Yup, agreed. People on the spectrum aren't generally hard to manage, but they are often managed a little differently. I've had several people to "practice upon" and get better at this. (Someone in a non-tech sector probably will not have this experience). It also helps that I have non-clinically significant introversion and pseudo-ASD tendencies myself and so I'm more predisposed to understand. I think having a manager/industry that understands ASD and having a job that lends itself well to ASD (things that can be more reasonably self-directed and independent and are not deep in peer or customer interaction) are important things that can help with success.
    - inimino 7y ago
      People in general are hard to "manage". Expectations that every one can be treated the same and the breathtaking unawareness within tech of the arbitrariness of social norms and customs generally only exacerbates all of these difficulties. What we need, even more than understanding of ASD, is awareness and empathy in general.
    - mattrp 7y ago
      Just remember what the article said - if you’ve met one, you’ve met... one. Everyone is different and what bothers me is the assumption of autism the instant someone does something unintentionally awkward. “Oh he’s on the spectrum...” I hear that so often as a dismissive that I wonder how actually thoughtful and caring that person really is... if we can’t have even the slightest bit of empathy towards fellow humans I wonder how these people would treat someone who actually does have autism.
krinchan 7y ago
The US has a lot of weird norms in the corporate office culture. It's a result of a protracted period of tucking more and more of the emotion of an interaction into the background context to avoid offense, conflict, or resentment. A lot of this is early Corporate Culture engineering. A good beginners example is the phrase, "per my last email." That's the one you'll see most, but variants such as "per the last meeting" and "per our previous conversation" are included. This phrase seems innocuous enough, but it's an expression of deep frustration with a tinge of insult at it's target. It's essentially saying, "You haven't been paying attention or you're an idiot. Either way, you are wasting my time." Imperative requests framed as optional questions is kinda a part of that. A constant stream of imperatives from your manager begins to feel like you're being "ordered around" and you're not "appreciated." So a manager will often ask you giving you the appearance of choice even though you both know you do not because the context of their authority makes it so. For a very long time, this worked. It was definitely manipulative, if not borderline brainwashing. Baby Boomer's misguided advice to younger generations about loyalty to employers is a result of this. For Gen X and on, it's mostly an empty husk of norms that are either meaningless or just the accepted way to insult someone without losing your job. "You're an idiot" will cost you your job but "Per my last email" carries the same message and doesn't cost you your job. Asking me politely to do a task is just how you assign tasks now, no one thinks it means you actually respect or care the assignee. I can definitely see how this layer would cause issues with people on the spectrum. It causes enough problems for neurotypicals.
- Balgair 7y ago
  Wait until you get a load of UK speech patterns: Amazing driving > I've nearly died with you at the wheel Great game > We lost 1-8, I hate my team, they stink so badly We'll meet up later > I'm not going out for anything but a WW3 Not to worry > I've cataloged this offense and will never forget it It's a bit wet > a tsunami has recently occured An email only ending in: Thanks > I hope you die It's fine > It is so bad that I have actually lost verbal control of myself in public Perfect > It's all ruined Not bad > It's total shite Not bad, actually > I am the happiest I have been in a decade It could be worse > The Blitz is actively occuring at this moment, all hope is lost Come round anytime > I never want to see you again Oh no, my fault > What are you doing you clumsy oaf When you have a tick > You are already late It'll be fine > I expect things to catch on fire shortly making things, somehow, worse Well, that's brave > you are criminally insane Quite good > underwhelming Oh by the way...> So, to the point of this interaction finally I just have a few minor comments > a complete re-write is required
paganel 7y ago
Not sure it’s a locale-specific thing because I live in Romania and I do it almost all the time. I don’t tell my gf “close the door, please”, but instead I tell her “can you please close the door?” (she talks the same way to me). Doing so seems more civilized, for lack of a better word, asking for things directly looks blunt and at times can even be seen as lack of respect.
bigred100 7y ago
I’m USian and I usually make an effort to be more formal and put more personal distance between managers and I. Some have remarked on it. I feel like it’s more straightforward and productive to do this. My manager has authority over me in a workplace setting in things that relate to work. Politeness and respect is great and probably requisite for long employment but we don’t need to pretend we are friends and you asked me for a favor. However I also have very clear boundaries about where management does and does not have authority and generally socialize less with management less than many of my peers have. I’m not sure whether this is weird or not.

by nyir 7y ago

mikeash 7y ago

Politeness is extremely culture and context dependent.

mlyle 7y ago

Yes, it's extremely locale specific. When dealing with different cultural contexts, it's easy to make both sides vaguely uncomfortable and confused. We all have a set of social tools that are used towards specific ends, and we have specific responses imagined. When the responses are far outside our expectation, we get viscerally uncomfortable and have to work to adapt-- and usually do so imperfectly. Ever see the stereotypical interaction-- where person A from a culture where you stand closer to talk talks to person B, who expects a longer distance? It's relatively common to see person A occasionally take a step towards person B, and person B occasionally step backwards and over a 15 minute conversation they back down the hall--- I'm sure both people are subtly uncomfortable and probably don't even consciously understand why.

inimino 7y ago
> I'm sure both people are subtly uncomfortable and probably don't even consciously understand why. And if only one of them becomes consciously aware of it that is enough to break the cycle. Sometimes all you need is a little awareness.
- mlyle 7y ago
  Yup, agreed. People on the spectrum aren't generally hard to manage, but they are often managed a little differently. I've had several people to "practice upon" and get better at this. (Someone in a non-tech sector probably will not have this experience). It also helps that I have non-clinically significant introversion and pseudo-ASD tendencies myself and so I'm more predisposed to understand. I think having a manager/industry that understands ASD and having a job that lends itself well to ASD (things that can be more reasonably self-directed and independent and are not deep in peer or customer interaction) are important things that can help with success.
  - inimino 7y ago
    People in general are hard to "manage". Expectations that every one can be treated the same and the breathtaking unawareness within tech of the arbitrariness of social norms and customs generally only exacerbates all of these difficulties. What we need, even more than understanding of ASD, is awareness and empathy in general.
  - mattrp 7y ago
    Just remember what the article said - if you’ve met one, you’ve met... one. Everyone is different and what bothers me is the assumption of autism the instant someone does something unintentionally awkward. “Oh he’s on the spectrum...” I hear that so often as a dismissive that I wonder how actually thoughtful and caring that person really is... if we can’t have even the slightest bit of empathy towards fellow humans I wonder how these people would treat someone who actually does have autism.

krinchan 7y ago

The US has a lot of weird norms in the corporate office culture. It's a result of a protracted period of tucking more and more of the emotion of an interaction into the background context to avoid offense, conflict, or resentment. A lot of this is early Corporate Culture engineering. A good beginners example is the phrase, "per my last email." That's the one you'll see most, but variants such as "per the last meeting" and "per our previous conversation" are included. This phrase seems innocuous enough, but it's an expression of deep frustration with a tinge of insult at it's target. It's essentially saying, "You haven't been paying attention or you're an idiot. Either way, you are wasting my time." Imperative requests framed as optional questions is kinda a part of that. A constant stream of imperatives from your manager begins to feel like you're being "ordered around" and you're not "appreciated." So a manager will often ask you giving you the appearance of choice even though you both know you do not because the context of their authority makes it so. For a very long time, this worked. It was definitely manipulative, if not borderline brainwashing. Baby Boomer's misguided advice to younger generations about loyalty to employers is a result of this. For Gen X and on, it's mostly an empty husk of norms that are either meaningless or just the accepted way to insult someone without losing your job. "You're an idiot" will cost you your job but "Per my last email" carries the same message and doesn't cost you your job. Asking me politely to do a task is just how you assign tasks now, no one thinks it means you actually respect or care the assignee. I can definitely see how this layer would cause issues with people on the spectrum. It causes enough problems for neurotypicals.

Balgair 7y ago
Wait until you get a load of UK speech patterns: Amazing driving > I've nearly died with you at the wheel Great game > We lost 1-8, I hate my team, they stink so badly We'll meet up later > I'm not going out for anything but a WW3 Not to worry > I've cataloged this offense and will never forget it It's a bit wet > a tsunami has recently occured An email only ending in: Thanks > I hope you die It's fine > It is so bad that I have actually lost verbal control of myself in public Perfect > It's all ruined Not bad > It's total shite Not bad, actually > I am the happiest I have been in a decade It could be worse > The Blitz is actively occuring at this moment, all hope is lost Come round anytime > I never want to see you again Oh no, my fault > What are you doing you clumsy oaf When you have a tick > You are already late It'll be fine > I expect things to catch on fire shortly making things, somehow, worse Well, that's brave > you are criminally insane Quite good > underwhelming Oh by the way...> So, to the point of this interaction finally I just have a few minor comments > a complete re-write is required

paganel 7y ago

Not sure it’s a locale-specific thing because I live in Romania and I do it almost all the time. I don’t tell my gf “close the door, please”, but instead I tell her “can you please close the door?” (she talks the same way to me). Doing so seems more civilized, for lack of a better word, asking for things directly looks blunt and at times can even be seen as lack of respect.

bigred100 7y ago

I’m USian and I usually make an effort to be more formal and put more personal distance between managers and I. Some have remarked on it. I feel like it’s more straightforward and productive to do this. My manager has authority over me in a workplace setting in things that relate to work. Politeness and respect is great and probably requisite for long employment but we don’t need to pretend we are friends and you asked me for a favor. However I also have very clear boundaries about where management does and does not have authority and generally socialize less with management less than many of my peers have. I’m not sure whether this is weird or not.