6 ms·

It's not a "problem". elsevier has been creating actual value for years. It's becoming a problem now precisely because we think they are creating more problems

by malms 7y ago

It's not a "problem". elsevier has been creating actual value for years. It's becoming a problem now precisely because we think they are creating more problems than value. It's always the value market which dictates what happens. Even a dictator has provide values for enough people (not necessarily its citizen) to stay in power.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
It's still a problem. Each individual scientists is better off short-term, in terms of their own career advancement, if they support Elsevier (by publishing with them), even though they'd be much better off longer-term if they all stopped supporting Elsevier. Markets do love this sort of thing; this is one way of capturing customers and extracting money from them, whether they like it or not.
- mcv 7y ago
  It's a kind of vendor lock-in. Elsevier is leveraging monopolistic power.
- malms 7y ago
  I agree with you but that's none of my point. My point is just that you have to weight the cost: it provided tremendous value through the system of journals, while not really giving a "real" drawback since everyone in research who has ever wanted to get a given paper in the past 5 decades has been able to find it despite the locking by trying hard enough to bypass it. i don't even understand the downvotes: i don't agree with the system and Elsevier can die but my point is just that they never were a really tangible "problem". Mostly a "1rst world problem".
  - mcv 7y ago
    Well, they became a problem due to their firm control over the system where they mostly profit from work that others do for them for free. If scientists write the content and other scientists review it, merely publishing the results of that process shouldn't cost that much. Elsevier is extracting a lot of value from the work of others, and locking the results of that work up. The act of publishing does add value, but not nearly as much as the researcher and reviewer have added, and yet Elsevier takes ownership of it all, because they happen to be sitting in a position of power built on that work done by others.
deleted 7y ago
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dmitriz 7y ago
What sort of value have they been creating?
- malms 7y ago
  providing the system on which is based a major criteria for scientist's career advancement not saying it's good, just that it's a fact

by malms 7y ago

TeMPOraL 7y ago

It's still a problem. Each individual scientists is better off short-term, in terms of their own career advancement, if they support Elsevier (by publishing with them), even though they'd be much better off longer-term if they all stopped supporting Elsevier. Markets do love this sort of thing; this is one way of capturing customers and extracting money from them, whether they like it or not.

mcv 7y ago
It's a kind of vendor lock-in. Elsevier is leveraging monopolistic power.
malms 7y ago
I agree with you but that's none of my point. My point is just that you have to weight the cost: it provided tremendous value through the system of journals, while not really giving a "real" drawback since everyone in research who has ever wanted to get a given paper in the past 5 decades has been able to find it despite the locking by trying hard enough to bypass it. i don't even understand the downvotes: i don't agree with the system and Elsevier can die but my point is just that they never were a really tangible "problem". Mostly a "1rst world problem".
- mcv 7y ago
  Well, they became a problem due to their firm control over the system where they mostly profit from work that others do for them for free. If scientists write the content and other scientists review it, merely publishing the results of that process shouldn't cost that much. Elsevier is extracting a lot of value from the work of others, and locking the results of that work up. The act of publishing does add value, but not nearly as much as the researcher and reviewer have added, and yet Elsevier takes ownership of it all, because they happen to be sitting in a position of power built on that work done by others.

deleted 7y ago

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dmitriz 7y ago

What sort of value have they been creating?

malms 7y ago
providing the system on which is based a major criteria for scientist's career advancement not saying it's good, just that it's a fact