8 ms·

For all the criticisms of Musk, and recent wackiness, it's moments like these that I thank our lucky stars that there are people like him on this earth. It just

by cVwEq 7y ago

For all the criticisms of Musk, and recent wackiness, it's moments like these that I thank our lucky stars that there are people like him on this earth. It just seems like these days there are so few people thinking about the long-term future of the human race. I love it that his solution to the "AI terminator" problem is making a brain-computer interface so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. I love it that he wants to help us kick our addiction to non-renewable fossil fuels. I love it that he wants to make us a two planet race so that we don't have all our humanity eggs in one planetary basket. Thank you Elon.

RomanBob 7y ago
>problem is making a brain-computer interface so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. our fighting chance is EMP.
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  what is EMP?
  - hollerith 7y ago
    An electromagnetic pulse, created when a nuclear bomb explodes, that some say will destroy all electronic devices within hundreds of miles that haven't been specifically designed to be EMP resistant.
  - scottlegrand2 7y ago
    Apparently Paul Allen's Experience Music Project has been a secret weapon against malevolent AIs all along! Or if you're no fun, it's an electromagnetic pulse.
- natosaichek 7y ago
  That's like saying a lions chance against humans is the big teeth. It's dangerous in a particular context, sure, but misses the fundamental assymmetry that took humans from scared or lions to existential threat to lions.
astronautjones 7y ago
> so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. there wouldn't be a need for this without rampant, myopic introduction of AI. why not just stop that irresponsible "innovation"?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway13337 7y ago
  These sorts of criticisms always ignore the prisoner's delima for the sake of expression of moral indignation. There is no stopping individual agents in a system from doing what helps them most without an authoritarian at the top. Mostly, those authoritarians come with even worse problems so we're left with this imperfect world. I'd love to see comments on hn not focused on self righteousness and instead realize that there is no one guy at the top that you just have to scream really loud at.
panic 7y ago
What evidence is there that AI is going to "take off" and threaten humanity somehow? How are people imagining this process would happen?
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  Here's one (Sam Harris') take on it: https://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_can_we_build_ai_without_losing_control_over_it?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_can_we_build_ai_without...
  - HNLurker2 7y ago
    Same guy that doesn't know Hume Guillotine(1) or anything about philosophy and is a charlatan with his meditation app (1)https://youtube.com/watch?v=wxalrwPNkNI https://youtube.com/watch?v=wxalrwPNkNI
    - nugga 7y ago
      I'm interested in hearing more about about being a charlatan with the meditation app especially considering, as far as I remember, you can get it for free by just asking.
      - HNLurker2 7y ago
        There's two types of people you meet who are into mindfulness: high practicioners (monks) and yoga guy from Los Angeles who is "kinda" into mindfulness but not really
        nugga 7y ago
        I can only go by what he and other people close to him say but he says he used to do plenty acid and been to retreats in asia for months and months (cumulatively) during his early life and seems to be good pals with people like Joseph Goldstein (who studied under asian teachers in 60s/70s). He has probably experienced all kinds of stuff. Point being, if you get (at least some of) what there is to get then does it matter where your body was born or what it looks like? Is it a bad thing that western born people are bringing this (buddhist/hindu/jain) thought to the west? I would revise your statement that there are the monastics who dedicate their lives to this, the lay people who practice and the commoditized 'yoga' as exercise/stretching folk/peddlers who are far removed from its spiritual components.
txcwpalpha 7y ago
There are, and have been, many many people working on all of these problems long before Elon Musk (the tech announced today at Neuralink is entirely built on work that was done by people at UCSF and UC Berkeley, and even that is an iteration on technology that was developed by scientists over the past several decades). Neuralink the company was founded by eight people other than Musk. It's a huge disservice to all of these people to give Musk the credit for their work. Musk sits in a weird position where his unique blend of controversy keeps him in the headlines and ensures he gets linked to these technologies, but that does not mean he is responsible for nor deserves the credit. It could be argued that his "ability" to constantly land in the limelight draws more attention (and thus progress) to these issues, but others would argue that we would be even further along if not for the constant controversy he creates.
- SECProto 7y ago
  One speaker is a professor from UCSF who studied the brain's processing of motor signals. He explicitly credited Musk for having the right vision and the long term planning, and that's why he left his position after 16 years to come work with Neuralink. No one credits Musk for solving bugs with the software on his products, or creating these brain-computer interfaces. But he can assemble the team to do, and motivate them to keep moving and progressing pretty aggressive schedules. And he frequently gives credit to his team (and doesn't sit there patting himself on the back).
  - kranner 7y ago
    > And he frequently gives credit to his team (and doesn't sit there patting himself on the back). Yes, the list of authors on the whitepaper they released is "Elon Musk & Neuralink". I guess his team should be thankful. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6204648-Neuralink-White-Paper.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6204648-Neuralink-Wh...
    - buboard 7y ago
      thats a white paper , not the research paper (which is what ppl will read). You can also read it the other way around: He wanted to credit the entire Neuralink team, without claiming to be part if it or leading it
tastroder 7y ago
> I love it that his solution to the "AI terminator" problem is making a brain-computer interface so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. This seems like making a well-intentioned medical application that incorporates latest research findings and likely addresses historical downsides of the field (e.g. scarring issues with long term deployment of invasive BCI). I don't see how that is anywhere close to being related to some sci-fi "AI terminator" scenario though. If you want to go into some cyberpunk fanfic about Musk you can just turn this application around and spin a "AI is now able to fry our brains out" narrative, which is neither helpful, nor realistic. This AI FUD is so weird to me, it's much more likely to be killed by badly written auto pilot for fancy cars, a failed operation to get your brain USB plug, a malicious application of AI by companies or state actors in areas like mass surveillance and population control... than it is for a real, strong AI to suddenly emerge, become sentient and decide that humanity cannot be trusted.
tristram_shandy 7y ago
I am also an optimist and a techno-utopian... BUT: 1. This has not been tested on a single human yet, as it has no FDA approval. 2. Preliminary trials in full quadripilegic patients are several away (these are also not yet approved) 3. Should these trials succeed, this will still not be available as an elective procedure for healthy people (that will take much more time) 3. The skull exists and is a hard barrier that is not going away. A decade or so from now, should this be approved as an elective procedure, patients will have to have a hole drilled in their skull (note that most people find LASIK invasive, even after decades of successful surgeries) 4. Patients will also have to become comfortable with thousands of fibers being inserted (albeit in a minimally invasive way) through brain tissue by an automated surgical robot. 5. Should the procedure be successful, patients should finally, at long last, be able to control a mouse, or keyboard, or smartphone using their brain and imagining the movements instead of using their hands. There is perhaps, a cyberpunk future where crime syndicates mine Bitcoin in the brains of their victims, where malware pipes gigabytes of extremist political memes in seconds through the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex of young adults. Maybe that will come one day, but this technology is only using the signals generated by the brain to control a mouse and keyboard. This existed twenty years ago in chimpanzee studies. The real innovation here is in materials science and surgery. This is amazing multi-disciplinary science in the pursuit of advanced medicine, and we should be applauding it for what it is. So, thank you Elon for funding this -- but more importantly, thanks to all the scientists, researchers, and engineers who have dedicated their lives the advancement of our science and medicine. I will not be electing to undergo this surgery in the future.
- buboard 7y ago
  The applications are very very speculative and far-reaching. I think, by the time the applications are feasible there will probably be a way to do minimally invasive craniectomy. The neural implant is impressive work, but anything beyond that is probably going to be very different than is speculated.
- Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
  > There is perhaps, a cyberpunk future where crime syndicates mine Bitcoin in the brains of their victims, where malware pipes gigabytes of extremist political memes in seconds through the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex of young adults. Not bad, man. I'd read that book.

by cVwEq 7y ago

RomanBob 7y ago

>problem is making a brain-computer interface so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. our fighting chance is EMP.

onemoresoop 7y ago
what is EMP?
- hollerith 7y ago
  An electromagnetic pulse, created when a nuclear bomb explodes, that some say will destroy all electronic devices within hundreds of miles that haven't been specifically designed to be EMP resistant.
- scottlegrand2 7y ago
  Apparently Paul Allen's Experience Music Project has been a secret weapon against malevolent AIs all along! Or if you're no fun, it's an electromagnetic pulse.
natosaichek 7y ago
That's like saying a lions chance against humans is the big teeth. It's dangerous in a particular context, sure, but misses the fundamental assymmetry that took humans from scared or lions to existential threat to lions.

astronautjones 7y ago

> so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. there wouldn't be a need for this without rampant, myopic introduction of AI. why not just stop that irresponsible "innovation"?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
throwaway13337 7y ago
These sorts of criticisms always ignore the prisoner's delima for the sake of expression of moral indignation. There is no stopping individual agents in a system from doing what helps them most without an authoritarian at the top. Mostly, those authoritarians come with even worse problems so we're left with this imperfect world. I'd love to see comments on hn not focused on self righteousness and instead realize that there is no one guy at the top that you just have to scream really loud at.

panic 7y ago

What evidence is there that AI is going to "take off" and threaten humanity somehow? How are people imagining this process would happen?

hombre_fatal 7y ago
Here's one (Sam Harris') take on it: https://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_can_we_build_ai_without_losing_control_over_it?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_can_we_build_ai_without...
- HNLurker2 7y ago
  Same guy that doesn't know Hume Guillotine(1) or anything about philosophy and is a charlatan with his meditation app (1)https://youtube.com/watch?v=wxalrwPNkNI https://youtube.com/watch?v=wxalrwPNkNI
  - nugga 7y ago
    I'm interested in hearing more about about being a charlatan with the meditation app especially considering, as far as I remember, you can get it for free by just asking.
    - HNLurker2 7y ago
      There's two types of people you meet who are into mindfulness: high practicioners (monks) and yoga guy from Los Angeles who is "kinda" into mindfulness but not really
      - nugga 7y ago
        I can only go by what he and other people close to him say but he says he used to do plenty acid and been to retreats in asia for months and months (cumulatively) during his early life and seems to be good pals with people like Joseph Goldstein (who studied under asian teachers in 60s/70s). He has probably experienced all kinds of stuff. Point being, if you get (at least some of) what there is to get then does it matter where your body was born or what it looks like? Is it a bad thing that western born people are bringing this (buddhist/hindu/jain) thought to the west? I would revise your statement that there are the monastics who dedicate their lives to this, the lay people who practice and the commoditized 'yoga' as exercise/stretching folk/peddlers who are far removed from its spiritual components.

txcwpalpha 7y ago

There are, and have been, many many people working on all of these problems long before Elon Musk (the tech announced today at Neuralink is entirely built on work that was done by people at UCSF and UC Berkeley, and even that is an iteration on technology that was developed by scientists over the past several decades). Neuralink the company was founded by eight people other than Musk. It's a huge disservice to all of these people to give Musk the credit for their work. Musk sits in a weird position where his unique blend of controversy keeps him in the headlines and ensures he gets linked to these technologies, but that does not mean he is responsible for nor deserves the credit. It could be argued that his "ability" to constantly land in the limelight draws more attention (and thus progress) to these issues, but others would argue that we would be even further along if not for the constant controversy he creates.

SECProto 7y ago
One speaker is a professor from UCSF who studied the brain's processing of motor signals. He explicitly credited Musk for having the right vision and the long term planning, and that's why he left his position after 16 years to come work with Neuralink. No one credits Musk for solving bugs with the software on his products, or creating these brain-computer interfaces. But he can assemble the team to do, and motivate them to keep moving and progressing pretty aggressive schedules. And he frequently gives credit to his team (and doesn't sit there patting himself on the back).
- kranner 7y ago
  > And he frequently gives credit to his team (and doesn't sit there patting himself on the back). Yes, the list of authors on the whitepaper they released is "Elon Musk & Neuralink". I guess his team should be thankful. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6204648-Neuralink-White-Paper.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6204648-Neuralink-Wh...
  - buboard 7y ago
    thats a white paper , not the research paper (which is what ppl will read). You can also read it the other way around: He wanted to credit the entire Neuralink team, without claiming to be part if it or leading it

tastroder 7y ago

> I love it that his solution to the "AI terminator" problem is making a brain-computer interface so that we can have a fighting chance when AI takes off. This seems like making a well-intentioned medical application that incorporates latest research findings and likely addresses historical downsides of the field (e.g. scarring issues with long term deployment of invasive BCI). I don't see how that is anywhere close to being related to some sci-fi "AI terminator" scenario though. If you want to go into some cyberpunk fanfic about Musk you can just turn this application around and spin a "AI is now able to fry our brains out" narrative, which is neither helpful, nor realistic. This AI FUD is so weird to me, it's much more likely to be killed by badly written auto pilot for fancy cars, a failed operation to get your brain USB plug, a malicious application of AI by companies or state actors in areas like mass surveillance and population control... than it is for a real, strong AI to suddenly emerge, become sentient and decide that humanity cannot be trusted.

tristram_shandy 7y ago

I am also an optimist and a techno-utopian... BUT: 1. This has not been tested on a single human yet, as it has no FDA approval. 2. Preliminary trials in full quadripilegic patients are several away (these are also not yet approved) 3. Should these trials succeed, this will still not be available as an elective procedure for healthy people (that will take much more time) 3. The skull exists and is a hard barrier that is not going away. A decade or so from now, should this be approved as an elective procedure, patients will have to have a hole drilled in their skull (note that most people find LASIK invasive, even after decades of successful surgeries) 4. Patients will also have to become comfortable with thousands of fibers being inserted (albeit in a minimally invasive way) through brain tissue by an automated surgical robot. 5. Should the procedure be successful, patients should finally, at long last, be able to control a mouse, or keyboard, or smartphone using their brain and imagining the movements instead of using their hands. There is perhaps, a cyberpunk future where crime syndicates mine Bitcoin in the brains of their victims, where malware pipes gigabytes of extremist political memes in seconds through the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex of young adults. Maybe that will come one day, but this technology is only using the signals generated by the brain to control a mouse and keyboard. This existed twenty years ago in chimpanzee studies. The real innovation here is in materials science and surgery. This is amazing multi-disciplinary science in the pursuit of advanced medicine, and we should be applauding it for what it is. So, thank you Elon for funding this -- but more importantly, thanks to all the scientists, researchers, and engineers who have dedicated their lives the advancement of our science and medicine. I will not be electing to undergo this surgery in the future.

buboard 7y ago
The applications are very very speculative and far-reaching. I think, by the time the applications are feasible there will probably be a way to do minimally invasive craniectomy. The neural implant is impressive work, but anything beyond that is probably going to be very different than is speculated.
Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
> There is perhaps, a cyberpunk future where crime syndicates mine Bitcoin in the brains of their victims, where malware pipes gigabytes of extremist political memes in seconds through the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex of young adults. Not bad, man. I'd read that book.