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It's a little depressing how long it takes to complete projects like this, but encouraging that they're even trying. So... I guess I feel neutral about this on

It's a little depressing how long it takes to complete projects like this, but encouraging that they're even trying. So... I guess I feel neutral about this on the balance. Anyone wanna take bets on how delayed and how much over budget they'll be?

rbritton 7y ago
The corruption won't help. [0] [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=puerto+rico+corruption+from+hurricane+maria&t=osx&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=puerto+rico+corruption+from+hurric...
JackFr 7y ago
Kevin Williamson writing about tunnel repairs in NYC https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/l-train-shutdown-repairs-what-took-long/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/l-train-shutdown-repai... "There was a terrible storm in 2012 that damaged the tunnel; repairs beginning in 2019 will shut down L Train service for a year and a half, etc. What strikes me as remarkable is that none of these accounts contains any half-serious attempt to explain to the curious reader such as myself why in the name of all that is good and holy it is taking all these years to get from Hurricane Sandy to Hurricane Sandy repairs. Assuming those repairs are done on schedule nearly nine years will have passed between Sandy and the completion of storm repairs. That’s twice as long as it took the United States to defeat the Axis powers, twice as long as the Civil War, longer than the time that elapsed between John Kennedy’s “We choose to go to the moon” speech and landing Americans on the moon."
- jandrese 7y ago
  It should be noted that it only took 8 years for the line to be built in the first place.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  This is what could be like: https://inhabitat.com/japanese-workers-take-just-6-days-to-fix-earthquake-shattered-road/ https://inhabitat.com/japanese-workers-take-just-6-days-to-f... The side-by-side picture is stunning.
  - scottlamb 7y ago
    Americans can pull off that kind of fast repair, too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2018/12/07/an-earthquake-created-highway-hellscape-alaska-days-later-road-reopened-good-new/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7ae5cf325d5b https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2018/12/07/an-... The Washington Post article hints at some of the differences between their repair and more permanent work: > Alaska DOT spokeswoman Shannon McCarthy was quick to emphasize that this was emergency repair work and not a regular transportation project. > The latter requires permitting, survey operations, geotechnical work and a host of other prerequisites — and those finished roadways are designed to last, say, 20 years, she said. > “All of those things take a lot of time,” McCarthy told The Washington Post. “This is not that kind of project. This is a project to restore essential travel.” > While the repaired road is safe for drivers, it will require additional work after the spring arrives, she added.
- mstade 7y ago
  > That’s twice as long as it took the United States to defeat the Axis powers, twice as long as the Civil War, longer than the time that elapsed between John Kennedy’s “We choose to go to the moon” speech and landing Americans on the moon." Implying the United States defeated the axis powers on their own is a bit rich – don't you think? Disregarding the revisionism of your comment, this seems to be a common argument in discussions like this and I wonder why? Isn't it fairly obvious that those ambitious undertakings were either due to significant political will or being forced by danger of death, whereas repairing a subway most probably carries none of that weight? So those responsible must fight tooth and nail to convince the powers that be of the necessity of the work, probably end up being underfunded anyhow, and of course all this requires the responsible (political) parties care enough in the first place. It seems like a pretty unreasonable argument to me, but maybe I'm missing the point.
  - JackFr 7y ago
    I don't think the point was to imply that the US beat the axis powers on their own, but rather to put the timeline in perspective. Notwithstanding that, you are missing the point. The failure to rebuild the tunnel is at its heart a failure of leadership. We have the technology, we have the money, what we lack are political leaders with will and vision. In the examples you brought up, FDR led a nation dragging their heels into a war most people were happy to stay out of. He showed leadership and no small amount of political skill to get the United States into a war most wanted to avoid (which makes the 'beat-the-axis-singlehandedly' trope even more ironic.) Similarly with Lincoln and the Civil War. Many people were content to live with the status quo of slavery. And so with Kennedy and the moon landing -- the Cold War was not an existential threat, and the leadership of Kennedy generated the will. To get a subway tunnel repaired doesn't need a once in a century or once in a generation leader, but it does take some will and vision and political savvy. The venal mealy-mouthed bums we're currently stuck with are simply not up to the task.
macspoofing 7y ago
>It's a little depressing how long it takes to complete projects like this What if this is because those kinds of projects aren't a great solution and yet we're constantly trying to hamfist them in because it 'feels' right. If it was easy and cheap we would have switched long time ago. Solar and wind are expensive, and they stress the infrastructure because of their inherent intermittency. Battery deployments are also expensive to deploy and to maintain (Li batteries will degrade, but then so will wind turbines and solar panels) and no battery project can bridge the gap in the daily and seasonal fluctuations of power output from solar and wind. You end up needing to burn fossil fuels to compensate. You'll burn either natural gas, or coal, or some sort of bio-fuel or garbage or ... whatever else, but you'll burn something. Hydro, geothermal and nuclear are pretty much the only proven power generation sources that can provide city-scale power without fossil fuels - and we're pretty much out of rivers to dam and geysers to develop. And since nobody likes nuclear anymore we're left with no actual solution to carbon emissions. But hey, Green New Deal is a great way to feel like you're doing something!! >Anyone wanna take bets on how delayed and how much over budget they'll be? Sure. I'll take that bet. It will be a disaster. I also don't believe that they will ever deploy 920 MW of battery storage - which would be by far the biggest battery deployment in the world. And if they do, it won't be worth it.
- loudmax 7y ago
  > Sure. I'll take that bet. It will be a disaster. I understand the "bet" here is figurative, but it's pretty sad to bet on the misery of others. We should have realistic expectations for how this project is likely to work out, but we shouldn't give into cynicism before the project has even gotten started. You'll probably end up proven right, but in this instance, I hope you're wrong. You should hope you're wrong too.
  - macspoofing 7y ago
    I take your point. Needless to say, that wasn't my intention.
dghughes 7y ago
Would that not be the Jones Act not so much Puerto Rico? Tesla wouldn't be affected by it but any other project that wasn't US-based would be. I find it amazing such archaic thing as the Jones Act exists. It's like a forgotten laws you sometimes see mocked in newspapers.

rbritton 7y ago

The corruption won't help. [0] [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=puerto+rico+corruption+from+hurricane+maria&t=osx&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=puerto+rico+corruption+from+hurric...

JackFr 7y ago

Kevin Williamson writing about tunnel repairs in NYC https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/l-train-shutdown-repairs-what-took-long/ https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/l-train-shutdown-repai... "There was a terrible storm in 2012 that damaged the tunnel; repairs beginning in 2019 will shut down L Train service for a year and a half, etc. What strikes me as remarkable is that none of these accounts contains any half-serious attempt to explain to the curious reader such as myself why in the name of all that is good and holy it is taking all these years to get from Hurricane Sandy to Hurricane Sandy repairs. Assuming those repairs are done on schedule nearly nine years will have passed between Sandy and the completion of storm repairs. That’s twice as long as it took the United States to defeat the Axis powers, twice as long as the Civil War, longer than the time that elapsed between John Kennedy’s “We choose to go to the moon” speech and landing Americans on the moon."

jandrese 7y ago
It should be noted that it only took 8 years for the line to be built in the first place.
jacquesm 7y ago
This is what could be like: https://inhabitat.com/japanese-workers-take-just-6-days-to-fix-earthquake-shattered-road/ https://inhabitat.com/japanese-workers-take-just-6-days-to-f... The side-by-side picture is stunning.
- scottlamb 7y ago
  Americans can pull off that kind of fast repair, too: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2018/12/07/an-earthquake-created-highway-hellscape-alaska-days-later-road-reopened-good-new/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7ae5cf325d5b https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2018/12/07/an-... The Washington Post article hints at some of the differences between their repair and more permanent work: > Alaska DOT spokeswoman Shannon McCarthy was quick to emphasize that this was emergency repair work and not a regular transportation project. > The latter requires permitting, survey operations, geotechnical work and a host of other prerequisites — and those finished roadways are designed to last, say, 20 years, she said. > “All of those things take a lot of time,” McCarthy told The Washington Post. “This is not that kind of project. This is a project to restore essential travel.” > While the repaired road is safe for drivers, it will require additional work after the spring arrives, she added.
mstade 7y ago
> That’s twice as long as it took the United States to defeat the Axis powers, twice as long as the Civil War, longer than the time that elapsed between John Kennedy’s “We choose to go to the moon” speech and landing Americans on the moon." Implying the United States defeated the axis powers on their own is a bit rich – don't you think? Disregarding the revisionism of your comment, this seems to be a common argument in discussions like this and I wonder why? Isn't it fairly obvious that those ambitious undertakings were either due to significant political will or being forced by danger of death, whereas repairing a subway most probably carries none of that weight? So those responsible must fight tooth and nail to convince the powers that be of the necessity of the work, probably end up being underfunded anyhow, and of course all this requires the responsible (political) parties care enough in the first place. It seems like a pretty unreasonable argument to me, but maybe I'm missing the point.
- JackFr 7y ago
  I don't think the point was to imply that the US beat the axis powers on their own, but rather to put the timeline in perspective. Notwithstanding that, you are missing the point. The failure to rebuild the tunnel is at its heart a failure of leadership. We have the technology, we have the money, what we lack are political leaders with will and vision. In the examples you brought up, FDR led a nation dragging their heels into a war most people were happy to stay out of. He showed leadership and no small amount of political skill to get the United States into a war most wanted to avoid (which makes the 'beat-the-axis-singlehandedly' trope even more ironic.) Similarly with Lincoln and the Civil War. Many people were content to live with the status quo of slavery. And so with Kennedy and the moon landing -- the Cold War was not an existential threat, and the leadership of Kennedy generated the will. To get a subway tunnel repaired doesn't need a once in a century or once in a generation leader, but it does take some will and vision and political savvy. The venal mealy-mouthed bums we're currently stuck with are simply not up to the task.

macspoofing 7y ago

>It's a little depressing how long it takes to complete projects like this What if this is because those kinds of projects aren't a great solution and yet we're constantly trying to hamfist them in because it 'feels' right. If it was easy and cheap we would have switched long time ago. Solar and wind are expensive, and they stress the infrastructure because of their inherent intermittency. Battery deployments are also expensive to deploy and to maintain (Li batteries will degrade, but then so will wind turbines and solar panels) and no battery project can bridge the gap in the daily and seasonal fluctuations of power output from solar and wind. You end up needing to burn fossil fuels to compensate. You'll burn either natural gas, or coal, or some sort of bio-fuel or garbage or ... whatever else, but you'll burn something. Hydro, geothermal and nuclear are pretty much the only proven power generation sources that can provide city-scale power without fossil fuels - and we're pretty much out of rivers to dam and geysers to develop. And since nobody likes nuclear anymore we're left with no actual solution to carbon emissions. But hey, Green New Deal is a great way to feel like you're doing something!! >Anyone wanna take bets on how delayed and how much over budget they'll be? Sure. I'll take that bet. It will be a disaster. I also don't believe that they will ever deploy 920 MW of battery storage - which would be by far the biggest battery deployment in the world. And if they do, it won't be worth it.

loudmax 7y ago
> Sure. I'll take that bet. It will be a disaster. I understand the "bet" here is figurative, but it's pretty sad to bet on the misery of others. We should have realistic expectations for how this project is likely to work out, but we shouldn't give into cynicism before the project has even gotten started. You'll probably end up proven right, but in this instance, I hope you're wrong. You should hope you're wrong too.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  I take your point. Needless to say, that wasn't my intention.

dghughes 7y ago

Would that not be the Jones Act not so much Puerto Rico? Tesla wouldn't be affected by it but any other project that wasn't US-based would be. I find it amazing such archaic thing as the Jones Act exists. It's like a forgotten laws you sometimes see mocked in newspapers.