6 ms·

Maybe it's a good thing. Moving away from seeing America as an economic goldrush where everyone can come and "get theirs", and more toward a place where people

by siedes 7y ago

Maybe it's a good thing. Moving away from seeing America as an economic goldrush where everyone can come and "get theirs", and more toward a place where people actually live in. This is my home, not an all you can eat buffet. If America cannot take care of its own poor and suffering, what are we doing trying to take care of the entire world?

intopieces 7y ago
Prosperity is not a zero-sum game whereby more Chinese success in America means less success for the native born. The is nativist/nationalist myopia. A waning respect for America illustrates that America has failed to make the case for western values to the Chinese people — open democracy, religious and cultural tolerance, etc — and we risk losing ground in other areas of the world (The African continent, for example).
- snaky 7y ago
  > Europeans, along with Canadians and Mexicans, are the most skeptical that the U.S. government respects Americans’ freedoms. Majorities in Spain, Mexico, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, France and Canada all say that the U.S. fails to respect the rights of its people. https://www.pewglobal.org/2018/10/01/americas-international-image-continues-to-suffer/ https://www.pewglobal.org/2018/10/01/americas-international-...
- frozenport 7y ago
  Perhaps there is a disconnect between Chinese people believe and what they are allowed to express? For example, they may be allowed to express their pro-American views through consumer purchases but cannot express them in political terms due aggressive government censorship and repression?
- whiddershins 7y ago
  How can we possibly make the case for Western values credibly when so many people in high profile positions in Academia, Politics, and Media openly call for abolishing them?
- Arbalest 7y ago
  It isn't zero sum, technically. But in the world of investing, in order to get the gains that people are always gunning for, someone else has to lose. Otherwise no one could ever get more than however much the GDP grows at, assuming no population growth. I don't see how this is any different.
- anthuman 7y ago
  Prosperity may not be a zero-sum game, but prosperity is a meaningless metric without understanding its association to power. Power is a zero sum game. During the 1800s both britain and the US became very prosperous. Unfortunately, our prosperity outstripped britain's prosperity and that power differential ultimately spelled the end for the british empire. Also, stop using "western values". It's an oft used propaganda nonsense hardly any intelligent person believes. Since when are "open democracy", "religious and cultural tolerance", etc "western values"? What about racism, genocide, nuking cities full of civilians? Human experimentation, rape of the environment, gluttony? Lets hope china doesn't adopt "western values" since the world doesn't need more of what happened to libya, iraq, syria, etc ( not to mention exterminating continents full of people ). Nativist/nationalist myopia is certainly a bad thing. But so is the pathetic globalist hippie myopia. As for the african continent, what they need is more nationalism. After all, nationalism is what made britain, france, US, germany, south korea, japan, china, etc wealthy and prosperous. What african countries need is are strong and stable governments willing to sacrifice for the good of their nations. Sadly, this means kicking out european parasites destabilizing their countries, it means getting rid of european bankers controlling their banking systems, it means taking control over their natural resources from european countries. Sadly, if any african country tried to take control over their destiny, europe would destroy the nation via sanctions, funding terrorists, etc.
- deogeo 7y ago
  > Prosperity is not a zero-sum game But in many cases it's close to it. A company that reduces its expenses by 5% will eventually bankrupt its competitor that wasn't able to do so (all else being equal). A 5% contribution to efficiency allows it to take over 100% of another company's market. The success of a company is in a very large part determined by its competition - more competition means starting a new company is harder.
gigatexal 7y ago
In a few years hopefully we will have a different administration and will open our borders again to all especially those from countries where the regimes are oppressive like that of President Ping of China. I would welcome a liberal immigration policy. Talent is the next oil and America if it wants to stay vibrant and dominant in the world needs to be a place where the best of the best come — but not only the best, everyone else is welcome, too, because you never know what a good education and opportunity will do for an ambitious kid. Immigrants often start foundational companies that go on to employ you and me. But this administration is so xenophobic it is hurting America’s ability to be the melting pot of culture and ideas. Just as Facebook is having a hard time convincing top talent to join it I worry about America not being a place that the next Satya Nadella wants to immigrate to.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  America actually has a pretty liberal immigration policy. The crackdown is on people who do not use the immigration system.
  - macintux 7y ago
    I’ll believe the crackdown is strictly about illegal immigration when our First Lady is shown the door.
    - sanxiyn 7y ago
      Why would First Lady be shown the door? Isn't marriage visa legal? I am in favor of prosecuting past visa violations but don't see the problem with current status.
      - macintux 7y ago
        https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/melania-trump-immigration-donald-226648 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/melania-trump-immigra...
  - gigatexal 7y ago
closeparen 7y ago
Chinese immigrants are not coming here to live on welfare, but to participate in the economy. That increased economic activity creates wealth with which we can help our own poor.
- peter303 7y ago
  But they bring their parents which they often put on SSI ($800 a month) and other freebies. Trump immigration proposals would end this, but unlikely to pas.
  - Thorrez 7y ago
    Aren't they only eligible for SSI if they've worked in the US for 10 years?
fellellor 7y ago
You are not "taking care of the world". These people are not going there to be taken care of. They are there to exploit economic opportunities, for which they also make their own substantial contribution. Now that increased competition may create scarcity for natives, so you want to skew the market to favor yourself. Now I'm not saying that is wrong, but the absence of laws favoring native citizens shouldn't be framed as some great philanthropic sacrifice either.
VvR-Ox 7y ago
This is a typical hypothesis of the nazis in germany. The truth is somewhat more complex because it's our own governments who don't take care about their people despite having the money and the power. E.g. in germany the taxes for the richest got cut more and more over the last decade or so until there are some of those who don't pay anything at all. There is companies like Google, Facebook, Starbucks, Ikea etc. who nearly don't pay any taxes in countries like germany. On the other hand the citizens are forced to do labor without meaning and/or without enough wages to survive old age. If you have to retire in germany you are screwed if you had the wrong job nowadays - you see the retired collecting bottles and waste in the streets because they don't have enough for a good life anymore. If our governments would take care of the people which they definitely could we'd have more than enough to share with the people who have to flee our guns and bombs we sold to their enemies before (to give the earnings to the richest again).
arcticbull 7y ago
Sorry, America doesn’t want to take care of its own. There’s more than enough money around, more than enough space, more than enough resources. There’s no will. Not collectively, anyways. That’s got nothing to do with immigrants. Me first, mine second, community last, “the other” coming to treat America as an all you can eat buffet of social services is the enemy. Which is crazy because America doesn’t really, uh, have social services. Which I think was the point of your post.

by siedes 7y ago

intopieces 7y ago

Prosperity is not a zero-sum game whereby more Chinese success in America means less success for the native born. The is nativist/nationalist myopia. A waning respect for America illustrates that America has failed to make the case for western values to the Chinese people — open democracy, religious and cultural tolerance, etc — and we risk losing ground in other areas of the world (The African continent, for example).

snaky 7y ago
> Europeans, along with Canadians and Mexicans, are the most skeptical that the U.S. government respects Americans’ freedoms. Majorities in Spain, Mexico, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, France and Canada all say that the U.S. fails to respect the rights of its people. https://www.pewglobal.org/2018/10/01/americas-international-image-continues-to-suffer/ https://www.pewglobal.org/2018/10/01/americas-international-...
frozenport 7y ago
Perhaps there is a disconnect between Chinese people believe and what they are allowed to express? For example, they may be allowed to express their pro-American views through consumer purchases but cannot express them in political terms due aggressive government censorship and repression?
whiddershins 7y ago
How can we possibly make the case for Western values credibly when so many people in high profile positions in Academia, Politics, and Media openly call for abolishing them?
Arbalest 7y ago
It isn't zero sum, technically. But in the world of investing, in order to get the gains that people are always gunning for, someone else has to lose. Otherwise no one could ever get more than however much the GDP grows at, assuming no population growth. I don't see how this is any different.
anthuman 7y ago
Prosperity may not be a zero-sum game, but prosperity is a meaningless metric without understanding its association to power. Power is a zero sum game. During the 1800s both britain and the US became very prosperous. Unfortunately, our prosperity outstripped britain's prosperity and that power differential ultimately spelled the end for the british empire. Also, stop using "western values". It's an oft used propaganda nonsense hardly any intelligent person believes. Since when are "open democracy", "religious and cultural tolerance", etc "western values"? What about racism, genocide, nuking cities full of civilians? Human experimentation, rape of the environment, gluttony? Lets hope china doesn't adopt "western values" since the world doesn't need more of what happened to libya, iraq, syria, etc ( not to mention exterminating continents full of people ). Nativist/nationalist myopia is certainly a bad thing. But so is the pathetic globalist hippie myopia. As for the african continent, what they need is more nationalism. After all, nationalism is what made britain, france, US, germany, south korea, japan, china, etc wealthy and prosperous. What african countries need is are strong and stable governments willing to sacrifice for the good of their nations. Sadly, this means kicking out european parasites destabilizing their countries, it means getting rid of european bankers controlling their banking systems, it means taking control over their natural resources from european countries. Sadly, if any african country tried to take control over their destiny, europe would destroy the nation via sanctions, funding terrorists, etc.
deogeo 7y ago
> Prosperity is not a zero-sum game But in many cases it's close to it. A company that reduces its expenses by 5% will eventually bankrupt its competitor that wasn't able to do so (all else being equal). A 5% contribution to efficiency allows it to take over 100% of another company's market. The success of a company is in a very large part determined by its competition - more competition means starting a new company is harder.

gigatexal 7y ago

In a few years hopefully we will have a different administration and will open our borders again to all especially those from countries where the regimes are oppressive like that of President Ping of China. I would welcome a liberal immigration policy. Talent is the next oil and America if it wants to stay vibrant and dominant in the world needs to be a place where the best of the best come — but not only the best, everyone else is welcome, too, because you never know what a good education and opportunity will do for an ambitious kid. Immigrants often start foundational companies that go on to employ you and me. But this administration is so xenophobic it is hurting America’s ability to be the melting pot of culture and ideas. Just as Facebook is having a hard time convincing top talent to join it I worry about America not being a place that the next Satya Nadella wants to immigrate to.

Fjolsvith 7y ago
America actually has a pretty liberal immigration policy. The crackdown is on people who do not use the immigration system.
- macintux 7y ago
  I’ll believe the crackdown is strictly about illegal immigration when our First Lady is shown the door.
  - sanxiyn 7y ago
    Why would First Lady be shown the door? Isn't marriage visa legal? I am in favor of prosecuting past visa violations but don't see the problem with current status.
    - macintux 7y ago
      https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/melania-trump-immigration-donald-226648 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/melania-trump-immigra...
- gigatexal 7y ago

closeparen 7y ago

Chinese immigrants are not coming here to live on welfare, but to participate in the economy. That increased economic activity creates wealth with which we can help our own poor.

peter303 7y ago
But they bring their parents which they often put on SSI ($800 a month) and other freebies. Trump immigration proposals would end this, but unlikely to pas.
- Thorrez 7y ago
  Aren't they only eligible for SSI if they've worked in the US for 10 years?

fellellor 7y ago

You are not "taking care of the world". These people are not going there to be taken care of. They are there to exploit economic opportunities, for which they also make their own substantial contribution. Now that increased competition may create scarcity for natives, so you want to skew the market to favor yourself. Now I'm not saying that is wrong, but the absence of laws favoring native citizens shouldn't be framed as some great philanthropic sacrifice either.

VvR-Ox 7y ago

This is a typical hypothesis of the nazis in germany. The truth is somewhat more complex because it's our own governments who don't take care about their people despite having the money and the power. E.g. in germany the taxes for the richest got cut more and more over the last decade or so until there are some of those who don't pay anything at all. There is companies like Google, Facebook, Starbucks, Ikea etc. who nearly don't pay any taxes in countries like germany. On the other hand the citizens are forced to do labor without meaning and/or without enough wages to survive old age. If you have to retire in germany you are screwed if you had the wrong job nowadays - you see the retired collecting bottles and waste in the streets because they don't have enough for a good life anymore. If our governments would take care of the people which they definitely could we'd have more than enough to share with the people who have to flee our guns and bombs we sold to their enemies before (to give the earnings to the richest again).

arcticbull 7y ago

Sorry, America doesn’t want to take care of its own. There’s more than enough money around, more than enough space, more than enough resources. There’s no will. Not collectively, anyways. That’s got nothing to do with immigrants. Me first, mine second, community last, “the other” coming to treat America as an all you can eat buffet of social services is the enemy. Which is crazy because America doesn’t really, uh, have social services. Which I think was the point of your post.