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Why should suicide be seen as anti-social? You are trying to force those who just want their unbearable pain to be over to continue to live. I never understood

Why should suicide be seen as anti-social? You are trying to force those who just want their unbearable pain to be over to continue to live. I never understood it being seen as selfish for a similar reason. I disagree stigma will reduce the suicide rate - when I do feel very suicidal, I can tell you I don't care what anyone thinks. Pretty much the only reason I am alive is I haven't figured out a way to actually end it that's somewhat guaranteed, painless, and irreversible - I know if I were to fail an attempt and end up in the hospital, people like you would force me to stay alive, weather it be throwing me in a padded white room or giving me drugs. Oh perhaps if I'm in enough physical pain, my pain will be legitimized and I'll be allowed euthanasia. And yet, somehow I am the anti-social one. [this is a throwaway account so that I can talk openly about being depressed and suicidal]

EdSharkey 7y ago
It's antisocial because we're harmed and we're lessened by you removing yourself. Don't do it.
- sad-throwaway 7y ago
  >we're lessened by you removing yourself I don't see how
  - vokep 7y ago
    Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. We're all pretty much the same, and in that, we all have pretty much the same potential to be better than whatever we are in this moment.
    - ionised 7y ago
      > Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. This is such an economists view on humanity and I can't help but wonder that assigning 'value' to people is part of what leads to increased suicide rates in the West in the first place. You want this person to stay alive and continue suffering, because they represent value to you. Dead, they are of no value to you. It's not the person's well-being you're interested in, it's what they can offer you to make your own life easier. How is that not selfish but ending your own suffering is?
      - EdSharkey 7y ago
        You've got a cynical view of things. Fact is, I and grandparent were reassuring sad-throwaway that they are worthy and valued. Your skepticism just throws another negative data point about humanity on the huge pile sad-throwaway has to contend with. Not cool, bro. You chose darkness.
brlewis 7y ago
>Why should suicide be seen as anti-social? Suicide causes long-term emotional pain for your family and friends. >this is a throwaway account so that I can talk openly about being depressed and suicidal Do you want people who don't know you and know hardly anything about your pain to engage in discussion with you? I will, but full disclosure -- it's because I don't want you or anyone to commit suicide.
- sad-throwaway 7y ago
  >Suicide causes long-term emotional pain for your family and friends. I have been in long-term emotional pain, and likely will be for the rest of my life. Yes, I do not want to cause others to feel pain - but why should I continue to deal with crushing pain just to spare others from pain that will likely pass? >Do you want people who don't know you and know hardly anything about your pain to engage in discussion with you? I don't see how that makes a difference. When I do speak to people in my life, it's not like it's helpful in any way. They just seem worried and concerned. That's touching, sure, but does not actually help. If anything, people often say to speak to a therapist - someone who doesn't know you. >I don't want you or anyone to commit suicide Why?
  - brlewis 7y ago
    It's a nerd thing. If I see someone's shoe untied I tell them. If I see someone trying to cut their steak with the dull edge of a knife I tell them to flip it over. If I see someone forgetting that this world is big, and being alive is interesting, I tell them not to commit suicide. A good therapist probably exists. You should figure out how to find her or him. [EDIT] Admittedly, the untied shoe and the steak knife are trivial problems that disappear once corrected, while the suffering that leads to ideas of suicide isn't, but it's the same internal motivation for me in all three cases. I'll also add that although this is the main reason I don't want people to commit suicide, there are others. One of these is that people who seriously consider suicide are different thinkers than I am, and a diversity of minds is useful and interesting.
showmedeadargh 7y ago
One of the most important things to understand about depression and suicide is that those who are in the middle of it are in an altered state of mind. They are locked into thought patterns that are self-reinforcing and prevent rational understanding. A person who is depressed and suicidal is literally unfit for making such decisions about their life. When the suicidal thoughts and depressed state abate, it's as if the person is suddenly a different person, of a different mind. Problems that once seemed insurmountable are no longer so. Positive things that seemed irrelevant or invisible before are suddenly there again and meaningful. It doesn't mean that all of one's problems go away or don't matter; it means that life seems livable again--and the only thing that has changed is one's thought patterns. It's almost like the mind is drunk on despair. And just like a drunk person is unfit to drive a car, a person who is "drunk on despair"--depressed and suicidal--is unfit to "drive" their own life. If you recognize that you are in a state of mind like this, you must use whatever rational part of your mind that remains to reject all of the thoughts and impulses of the despairing part. Don't give the drunk the keys to the car; he will kill not only himself, but likely harm many others as well. And don't ignore him, because he'll probably get drunk again tomorrow and want the keys again. Go, take him to get help, now, while you can. There are people whose entire life's work is to help people in need like this. Let them help you.
vokep 7y ago
Because the pain is bearable if you've survived this long. Emotional pain can be controlled in ways physical pain can't. I wouldn't dare delegitimize your feelings, so understand that isn't what is intended when I say that it is all in your head. >when I do feel very suicidal, I can tell you I don't care what anyone thinks. That right there, thats antisocial. You aren't considering those around you. Do you have no family? No friends? No coworkers? Nobody? Even people who "truly have nobody" usually have people around them that they aren't appreciating. People who would be devastated, and feel guilty for the rest of their life. It also is murder of your future self potential. You have absolutely no clue what the future holds, what your interaction with it might be, and in a sense you have no right to take that from your future self. Personally I see this as equivalent to murder. I've been in dark places before, and I am very very very happy that my past self didn't kill present me. Suicide is a bug in the human program, it must be allowed in order for us to be able to think freely, but it is absolutely never the correct option for anyone that isn't terminally ill and on their deathbed already. (assisted suicide for physical issues with no potential good future makes sense. Suicide for anything else is almost certainly a mistake, an incorrect action) Please get help, talk to people around you. Look at what causes the pain you feel and think about if you maybe are holding onto assumptions about how the world works that are keeping you from exploring what's good in life. One perspective I've seen is that nobody should be truly suicidal ever, because once you are, you may as well just do anything and everything you can imagine, you're already going to die, so why not during something exciting. Theres an irony in it, since someone suicidal often may not feel they even have doing anything they could imagine as an option, and if they were to actually do such things, they'd likely no longer be suicidal. If you at all can, try to do the things. I don't know what else to say, I've been in a place where I'd say similar things as you do, and looking back it was absolutely wrong. Not that you are bad at all, but you are wrong in the way you are looking at things, and that, at least in part, is causing your pain. The real cause of the pain is something only you know, best of luck dealing with it.
instantwhat 7y ago
One of the most important things to understand about depression and suicide is that those who are in the middle of it are in an altered state of mind. They are locked into thought patterns that are self-reinforcing and prevent rational understanding. A person who is depressed and suicidal is literally unfit for making such decisions about their life. When the suicidal thoughts and depressed state abate, it's as if the person is suddenly a different person, of a different mind. Problems that once seemed insurmountable are no longer so. Positive things that seemed irrelevant or invisible before are suddenly there again and meaningful. It doesn't mean that all of one's problems go away or don't matter; it means that life seems livable again--and the only thing that has changed is one's thought patterns. It's almost like the mind is drunk on despair. And just like a drunk person is unfit to drive a car, a person who is "drunk on despair"--depressed and suicidal--is unfit to "drive" their own life. If you recognize that you are in a state of mind like this, you must use whatever rational part of your mind that remains to reject all of the thoughts and impulses of the despairing part. Don't give the drunk the keys to the car; he will kill not only himself, but likely harm many others as well. And don't ignore him, because he'll probably get drunk again tomorrow and want the keys again. Go, take him to get help, now, while you can. There are people whose entire life's work is to help people in need like this. Let them help you.
- sad-throwaway 7y ago
  Wow I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you
- ionised 7y ago
  The problem is that for some people, that 'drunk' state is chronic, never-ending and for all intents and purposes, permanent. Depression isn't just the low feeling after a bad breakup, or a job loss or some other life hurdle. Sometimes it's a chronic condition that may not ever end because it doesn't have any of those typical 'triggers', it's clinical and relentless. When you understand that, you'll see why that in telling someone their planned suicide is merely 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' they look at you with nothing more than contempt. Because you don't understand what its like. You never will.
ionised 7y ago
I think its selfish and unfair to judge other people selfish and unfair just because you want to save yourself the pain of loss. That said, I do think people have the right to voluntarily end their own existence, but clearly many suicides are a result of temporary mental problems like severe depression, or temporary life problems like crippling debt, job loss or loss of a relationship. These things could have potentially been resolved. I also think it's totally possible to have just had enough of life as well. It's an unpopular opinion because survival instinct is such a strong force, but I really don't think life is for everybody, and if that person wants to check out they are going to do it whether you like it or not. A comedian once said; “Life is like a movie, if you've sat through more than half of it and it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out early.” I tend to agree with that. Not all suicides are the result of mental illness. Some people just want to check out early because they never enjoyed being here, despite not having what outside observers may identify as mental or personal problems. Some societies glorified suicide, or held it as a way out of dishonour (think the ship's captain locking himself in a room with a bottle of whiskey and a revolver, or the Samurai that accepted their own deaths long before they walked on the battlefield). I think our attitudes towards suicide are partly social (it alarms us to see members of our own species ending their lives, as it doesn't jive well with our world view) and partly cultural/religious (Abrahamic religions treated suicide as a mortal sin) and other cultures may see the act of self-termination differently. I also don't think its helpful to throw accusations of 'mental illness' around as easily as we seem to. Whether it is a suicide or a mass murder, instantly jumping to mental illness absolves us of the need to understand this uncomfortable aspect of humanity. It is easier than accepting the cultural and philisophical factors at play, and the realisation that we are all capable of these acts given the right set of circumstances. Philosophers have long pondered this question. You can find arguments for and against here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/

EdSharkey 7y ago

It's antisocial because we're harmed and we're lessened by you removing yourself. Don't do it.

sad-throwaway 7y ago
>we're lessened by you removing yourself I don't see how
- vokep 7y ago
  Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. We're all pretty much the same, and in that, we all have pretty much the same potential to be better than whatever we are in this moment.
  - ionised 7y ago
    > Because you have value. Unless you're literally hitler, you have value, and probably a lot of it actually. This is such an economists view on humanity and I can't help but wonder that assigning 'value' to people is part of what leads to increased suicide rates in the West in the first place. You want this person to stay alive and continue suffering, because they represent value to you. Dead, they are of no value to you. It's not the person's well-being you're interested in, it's what they can offer you to make your own life easier. How is that not selfish but ending your own suffering is?
    - EdSharkey 7y ago
      You've got a cynical view of things. Fact is, I and grandparent were reassuring sad-throwaway that they are worthy and valued. Your skepticism just throws another negative data point about humanity on the huge pile sad-throwaway has to contend with. Not cool, bro. You chose darkness.

brlewis 7y ago

>Why should suicide be seen as anti-social? Suicide causes long-term emotional pain for your family and friends. >this is a throwaway account so that I can talk openly about being depressed and suicidal Do you want people who don't know you and know hardly anything about your pain to engage in discussion with you? I will, but full disclosure -- it's because I don't want you or anyone to commit suicide.

sad-throwaway 7y ago
>Suicide causes long-term emotional pain for your family and friends. I have been in long-term emotional pain, and likely will be for the rest of my life. Yes, I do not want to cause others to feel pain - but why should I continue to deal with crushing pain just to spare others from pain that will likely pass? >Do you want people who don't know you and know hardly anything about your pain to engage in discussion with you? I don't see how that makes a difference. When I do speak to people in my life, it's not like it's helpful in any way. They just seem worried and concerned. That's touching, sure, but does not actually help. If anything, people often say to speak to a therapist - someone who doesn't know you. >I don't want you or anyone to commit suicide Why?
- brlewis 7y ago
  It's a nerd thing. If I see someone's shoe untied I tell them. If I see someone trying to cut their steak with the dull edge of a knife I tell them to flip it over. If I see someone forgetting that this world is big, and being alive is interesting, I tell them not to commit suicide. A good therapist probably exists. You should figure out how to find her or him. [EDIT] Admittedly, the untied shoe and the steak knife are trivial problems that disappear once corrected, while the suffering that leads to ideas of suicide isn't, but it's the same internal motivation for me in all three cases. I'll also add that although this is the main reason I don't want people to commit suicide, there are others. One of these is that people who seriously consider suicide are different thinkers than I am, and a diversity of minds is useful and interesting.

showmedeadargh 7y ago

One of the most important things to understand about depression and suicide is that those who are in the middle of it are in an altered state of mind. They are locked into thought patterns that are self-reinforcing and prevent rational understanding. A person who is depressed and suicidal is literally unfit for making such decisions about their life. When the suicidal thoughts and depressed state abate, it's as if the person is suddenly a different person, of a different mind. Problems that once seemed insurmountable are no longer so. Positive things that seemed irrelevant or invisible before are suddenly there again and meaningful. It doesn't mean that all of one's problems go away or don't matter; it means that life seems livable again--and the only thing that has changed is one's thought patterns. It's almost like the mind is drunk on despair. And just like a drunk person is unfit to drive a car, a person who is "drunk on despair"--depressed and suicidal--is unfit to "drive" their own life. If you recognize that you are in a state of mind like this, you must use whatever rational part of your mind that remains to reject all of the thoughts and impulses of the despairing part. Don't give the drunk the keys to the car; he will kill not only himself, but likely harm many others as well. And don't ignore him, because he'll probably get drunk again tomorrow and want the keys again. Go, take him to get help, now, while you can. There are people whose entire life's work is to help people in need like this. Let them help you.

vokep 7y ago

Because the pain is bearable if you've survived this long. Emotional pain can be controlled in ways physical pain can't. I wouldn't dare delegitimize your feelings, so understand that isn't what is intended when I say that it is all in your head. >when I do feel very suicidal, I can tell you I don't care what anyone thinks. That right there, thats antisocial. You aren't considering those around you. Do you have no family? No friends? No coworkers? Nobody? Even people who "truly have nobody" usually have people around them that they aren't appreciating. People who would be devastated, and feel guilty for the rest of their life. It also is murder of your future self potential. You have absolutely no clue what the future holds, what your interaction with it might be, and in a sense you have no right to take that from your future self. Personally I see this as equivalent to murder. I've been in dark places before, and I am very very very happy that my past self didn't kill present me. Suicide is a bug in the human program, it must be allowed in order for us to be able to think freely, but it is absolutely never the correct option for anyone that isn't terminally ill and on their deathbed already. (assisted suicide for physical issues with no potential good future makes sense. Suicide for anything else is almost certainly a mistake, an incorrect action) Please get help, talk to people around you. Look at what causes the pain you feel and think about if you maybe are holding onto assumptions about how the world works that are keeping you from exploring what's good in life. One perspective I've seen is that nobody should be truly suicidal ever, because once you are, you may as well just do anything and everything you can imagine, you're already going to die, so why not during something exciting. Theres an irony in it, since someone suicidal often may not feel they even have doing anything they could imagine as an option, and if they were to actually do such things, they'd likely no longer be suicidal. If you at all can, try to do the things. I don't know what else to say, I've been in a place where I'd say similar things as you do, and looking back it was absolutely wrong. Not that you are bad at all, but you are wrong in the way you are looking at things, and that, at least in part, is causing your pain. The real cause of the pain is something only you know, best of luck dealing with it.

instantwhat 7y ago

sad-throwaway 7y ago
Wow I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you
ionised 7y ago
The problem is that for some people, that 'drunk' state is chronic, never-ending and for all intents and purposes, permanent. Depression isn't just the low feeling after a bad breakup, or a job loss or some other life hurdle. Sometimes it's a chronic condition that may not ever end because it doesn't have any of those typical 'triggers', it's clinical and relentless. When you understand that, you'll see why that in telling someone their planned suicide is merely 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' they look at you with nothing more than contempt. Because you don't understand what its like. You never will.

ionised 7y ago

I think its selfish and unfair to judge other people selfish and unfair just because you want to save yourself the pain of loss. That said, I do think people have the right to voluntarily end their own existence, but clearly many suicides are a result of temporary mental problems like severe depression, or temporary life problems like crippling debt, job loss or loss of a relationship. These things could have potentially been resolved. I also think it's totally possible to have just had enough of life as well. It's an unpopular opinion because survival instinct is such a strong force, but I really don't think life is for everybody, and if that person wants to check out they are going to do it whether you like it or not. A comedian once said; “Life is like a movie, if you've sat through more than half of it and it’s sucked every second so far, it probably isn't going to get great right at the end and make it all worthwhile. None should blame you for walking out early.” I tend to agree with that. Not all suicides are the result of mental illness. Some people just want to check out early because they never enjoyed being here, despite not having what outside observers may identify as mental or personal problems. Some societies glorified suicide, or held it as a way out of dishonour (think the ship's captain locking himself in a room with a bottle of whiskey and a revolver, or the Samurai that accepted their own deaths long before they walked on the battlefield). I think our attitudes towards suicide are partly social (it alarms us to see members of our own species ending their lives, as it doesn't jive well with our world view) and partly cultural/religious (Abrahamic religions treated suicide as a mortal sin) and other cultures may see the act of self-termination differently. I also don't think its helpful to throw accusations of 'mental illness' around as easily as we seem to. Whether it is a suicide or a mass murder, instantly jumping to mental illness absolves us of the need to understand this uncomfortable aspect of humanity. It is easier than accepting the cultural and philisophical factors at play, and the realisation that we are all capable of these acts given the right set of circumstances. Philosophers have long pondered this question. You can find arguments for and against here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/suicide/