22 ms·

It's time to retire the tired old nation-state space-race narrative. We're all in this together people. Their failure is our failure.

nativeimigrant 7y ago
I'm as about as happy for them as I would have been for Germany during 30s and 40s.
moate 7y ago
Agree to disagree here. The whole "we're all one people thing" is a great idea and all (I'm a huge fan, would love for the U.N. to be something other than the personification of national relations and instead be a real governing body) but that's not how things work. This is Israel's project. They had assistance from other organizations/countries, but they're not doing this to better North Korea in any real way and you shouldn't hold North Korean responsible for their failure.
- brainpool 7y ago
  Disagree to agree here. It should really be how things can work. We have the opportunity and possibly the unity to get together on a vision for mankind for the first time in history. Obviously there are challenges, but if all people got to vote in their respective democraties for a global push to space - I would be surprised to not see it approved.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    > but if all people got to vote in their respective democraties for a global push to space Isn't that anathema to the current isolationist, nationalist bent a lot of the worlds biggest and baddest powers people seem to be adopting?
    - oliveshell 7y ago
      Who cares? Doesn’t mean it’s not something we should hope for.
      - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        > Obviously there are challenges, but if all people got to vote in their respective democraties for a global push to space - I would be surprised to not see it approved. My point is that I would be very much surprised to see it approved, as it appears to be the people themselves who have become against these sorts of global pushes. Yes, it should be the goal, I was raised on Star Trek, I'm just saying that doesn't seem likely.
  - ufmace 7y ago
    Should is a dangerous word. Just because you or I think something should happen doesn't mean it is in any way realistic. It seems we're a competitive species, and we rarely do anything really hard if it doesn't offer a chance to be the first or best at something, or to better someone else. That doesn't mean it's impossible, just that we need something to change the market, not fairy tales about international cooperation. Elon Musk's project to massively decrease the cost of space access is a step in the right direction. I don't think we'd ever get to widespread space activity if we depend on massive spending by national governments to do it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TomMckenny 7y ago
Indeed, and the Israeli project was a new experiment in low cost, volunteer rich space exploration. Its outcome and repetition _is_ significant to everyone. Indeed, nationalistic associations distract from rather than enhance a project. And we have a few examples of internationalism already like the ISS. And presumably any Mars mission will have to be international. Which is another one of the reasons such projects is worth while.
brandmeyer 7y ago
Nothing could be further from the truth. These folks are fierce with nationalistic and sectarian pride in their vehicle. https://mobile.twitter.com/teamspaceil/status/1116312931103399937 https://mobile.twitter.com/teamspaceil/status/11163129311033...
- RIMR 7y ago
  Honestly, I consider this consent to mock them for their failure. This cockiness is on the same level as calling the Titanic "The Unsinkable". They wanted to fail modestly, they should have behaved modestly.
  - brandmeyer 7y ago
    My point really wasn't that these folks got what's coming to them for their arrogance. My point is that this isn't a mission of international we're-all-in-this-together cooperation. It is very much viewed by the Israeli's running the mission as a part of the nation-state space race.
    - RIMR 7y ago
      Which means we can now judge the mission by the merits of the nation-state it represents. Israel is a violent apartheid state that is attempt to ethnically cleanse its population. Since the mission held zero scientific value, I'm glad it crashed.
      - golemiprague 7y ago
        It was a private mission financed by a private person, not a national program. Ethnic cleansing of the native population maybe happened in the US or Australia, not in Israel where 20% of the population are Arabs and many of them are not even native but rather immigrants from other Arab countries, exactly like the majority of Jews in Israel who were forcefully kicked out of their homes in the Arab world. There are almost no Jews in Arab countries today, so who does ethnic cleansing?
      - 7y ago
RIMR 7y ago
Sorry, I still stand with Palestine. Since this had no scientific value, they and their hideous apartheid state can suck it.
ForrestN 7y ago
It’s time to retire the ignorant notion that nation-state space programs can be morally disentangled from the governments pursuing them in no small part for political ends. Their success is the regime’s success.
JKCalhoun 7y ago
I'll play the contrarian and suggest that a space race is the best kind of national pride. If you're okay with football (soccer) or Olympics pride, this is, in my mind, better still. And ironaically, as you suggest, when one country wins, we in fact all win. I would much rather we fight to push back the boundaries of space than to hurl actual bombs at each other.
volkisch 7y ago
I'm sure you're going to benefit from this, right? Lemming.
outside1234 7y ago
We don't cheer for countries practicing Apartheid.
Medraut 7y ago
This! While my sentiment may feel a bit Star Trekky/naive, our quest to get to the stars will only succeed if we, as a planet, pull together. If we dont, we'll be limited to this solar system. China, US, India, Israel, Russia (sorry for anyone else Im missing :-)), are all pioneers and we should celebrate their successes, and continued desire to push the envelope.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  The issue every single country you listed is that space tech and ICBM tech are virtually the same. Those countries are good at it because they make excellent missiles for war. It is a sad reality. NASA and the DoD work hand in hand together, and virtually always have.
  - Medraut 7y ago
    I completely agree. War drives innovation, its a very sad reality. Though in order to get further than our solar system, we'll either need to destroy ourselves, or combine our resources. Some are already trying, and its great. Others have a way to go before realizing this. Very altruistic, I know. Though I think some altruism is needed!

nativeimigrant 7y ago

I'm as about as happy for them as I would have been for Germany during 30s and 40s.

moate 7y ago

Agree to disagree here. The whole "we're all one people thing" is a great idea and all (I'm a huge fan, would love for the U.N. to be something other than the personification of national relations and instead be a real governing body) but that's not how things work. This is Israel's project. They had assistance from other organizations/countries, but they're not doing this to better North Korea in any real way and you shouldn't hold North Korean responsible for their failure.

brainpool 7y ago
Disagree to agree here. It should really be how things can work. We have the opportunity and possibly the unity to get together on a vision for mankind for the first time in history. Obviously there are challenges, but if all people got to vote in their respective democraties for a global push to space - I would be surprised to not see it approved.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > but if all people got to vote in their respective democraties for a global push to space Isn't that anathema to the current isolationist, nationalist bent a lot of the worlds biggest and baddest powers people seem to be adopting?
  - oliveshell 7y ago
    Who cares? Doesn’t mean it’s not something we should hope for.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      > Obviously there are challenges, but if all people got to vote in their respective democraties for a global push to space - I would be surprised to not see it approved. My point is that I would be very much surprised to see it approved, as it appears to be the people themselves who have become against these sorts of global pushes. Yes, it should be the goal, I was raised on Star Trek, I'm just saying that doesn't seem likely.
- ufmace 7y ago
  Should is a dangerous word. Just because you or I think something should happen doesn't mean it is in any way realistic. It seems we're a competitive species, and we rarely do anything really hard if it doesn't offer a chance to be the first or best at something, or to better someone else. That doesn't mean it's impossible, just that we need something to change the market, not fairy tales about international cooperation. Elon Musk's project to massively decrease the cost of space access is a step in the right direction. I don't think we'd ever get to widespread space activity if we depend on massive spending by national governments to do it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

TomMckenny 7y ago

Indeed, and the Israeli project was a new experiment in low cost, volunteer rich space exploration. Its outcome and repetition _is_ significant to everyone. Indeed, nationalistic associations distract from rather than enhance a project. And we have a few examples of internationalism already like the ISS. And presumably any Mars mission will have to be international. Which is another one of the reasons such projects is worth while.

brandmeyer 7y ago

Nothing could be further from the truth. These folks are fierce with nationalistic and sectarian pride in their vehicle. https://mobile.twitter.com/teamspaceil/status/1116312931103399937 https://mobile.twitter.com/teamspaceil/status/11163129311033...

RIMR 7y ago
Honestly, I consider this consent to mock them for their failure. This cockiness is on the same level as calling the Titanic "The Unsinkable". They wanted to fail modestly, they should have behaved modestly.
- brandmeyer 7y ago
  My point really wasn't that these folks got what's coming to them for their arrogance. My point is that this isn't a mission of international we're-all-in-this-together cooperation. It is very much viewed by the Israeli's running the mission as a part of the nation-state space race.
  - RIMR 7y ago
    Which means we can now judge the mission by the merits of the nation-state it represents. Israel is a violent apartheid state that is attempt to ethnically cleanse its population. Since the mission held zero scientific value, I'm glad it crashed.
    - golemiprague 7y ago
      It was a private mission financed by a private person, not a national program. Ethnic cleansing of the native population maybe happened in the US or Australia, not in Israel where 20% of the population are Arabs and many of them are not even native but rather immigrants from other Arab countries, exactly like the majority of Jews in Israel who were forcefully kicked out of their homes in the Arab world. There are almost no Jews in Arab countries today, so who does ethnic cleansing?
    - 7y ago

RIMR 7y ago

Sorry, I still stand with Palestine. Since this had no scientific value, they and their hideous apartheid state can suck it.

ForrestN 7y ago

It’s time to retire the ignorant notion that nation-state space programs can be morally disentangled from the governments pursuing them in no small part for political ends. Their success is the regime’s success.

JKCalhoun 7y ago

I'll play the contrarian and suggest that a space race is the best kind of national pride. If you're okay with football (soccer) or Olympics pride, this is, in my mind, better still. And ironaically, as you suggest, when one country wins, we in fact all win. I would much rather we fight to push back the boundaries of space than to hurl actual bombs at each other.

volkisch 7y ago

I'm sure you're going to benefit from this, right? Lemming.

outside1234 7y ago

We don't cheer for countries practicing Apartheid.

Medraut 7y ago

This! While my sentiment may feel a bit Star Trekky/naive, our quest to get to the stars will only succeed if we, as a planet, pull together. If we dont, we'll be limited to this solar system. China, US, India, Israel, Russia (sorry for anyone else Im missing :-)), are all pioneers and we should celebrate their successes, and continued desire to push the envelope.

SEJeff 7y ago
The issue every single country you listed is that space tech and ICBM tech are virtually the same. Those countries are good at it because they make excellent missiles for war. It is a sad reality. NASA and the DoD work hand in hand together, and virtually always have.
- Medraut 7y ago
  I completely agree. War drives innovation, its a very sad reality. Though in order to get further than our solar system, we'll either need to destroy ourselves, or combine our resources. Some are already trying, and its great. Others have a way to go before realizing this. Very altruistic, I know. Though I think some altruism is needed!