5 ms·

> What bothers me about this conversation is that disastrous, society-shattering consequences are always mentioned if women keep choosing not to have sex with m

> What bothers me about this conversation is that disastrous, society-shattering consequences are always mentioned if women keep choosing not to have sex with more men, but no one seems willing to suggest that men need to change the way they view sex, relationships and themselves. I may have missed part of this conversation but I don't think there's a suggestion that women are doing something /wrong/ or that they need to be the ones to "fix" this problem. Although admittedly the framing kind of makes it look like this because it appears to be women's behaviour and attitudes that have changed over recent decades, rather than men's. I agree with you; Since this is the way things are going, men need to find a way to change their expectations and entitlement and adapt. Unfortunately discussions around this often get over-run with misogyny and bitterness (MGTOW/red-pill) and it's remarkably hard to find safe spaces for men to talk openly about their issues while keeping out that subset of men. (shout out to /r/menslib)

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
> discussions around this often get over-run with misogyny and bitterness If the adaptation required is to become part of the 20% of men that 70% of women pursue, bitterness from the 80% of less-desirable men is inevitable since they can't compete, which inhibits their ability to obtain a mate and have a good life. Sure, a mate isn't _technically_ required to live a good life, but in our intensely individualistic society where the number of friends men have is dropping precipitously, relationships form a core of socialization for many men.
- bencoder 7y ago
  > Sure, a mate isn't _technically_ required to live a good life, but in our intensely individualistic society where the number of friends men have is dropping precipitously, relationships form a core of socialization for many men. Perhaps this is the part where we need to change and improve? Rather than expecting the world or women to align to us.
  - belorn 7y ago
    This could be said to any gender issue. If money is required to live a good life, but in our intensely individualistic society where the money women have access to is dropping precipitously, work form a core of income for many women. Perhaps this is the part where they need to change and improve? Rather than expecting the world or men to align to them.
raducu 7y ago
I fail to see how MGTOW is not an answer to this problem. Isn't it a good thing that men who feel they are not attractive to females quit for good the dating scene? Isn't part of the problem the narative that females have been fed -- that they can just have fun in their 20s and then settle down with a nice guy in their 30s? If females knew they won't have the backup option in their 30s, maybe they'd be more willing to choose the monoganous option earlier in life?
- bencoder 7y ago
  In theory, certainly, mgtow seems fine. In practice, like your message right here, it's coming from a place of bitterness and resentment and a desire to "get back" at women. I prefer not to live like that, regardless of whether I'm currently seeking a partner, so the MGTOW label is inappropriate and any other label would likely get overloaded with similar bitter people. As an aside, why do you refer to men as "men" and "guys", but women as "females"? The asymmetry there felt quite jarring to read.
  - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
    > As an aside, why do you refer to men as "men" and "guys", but women as "females"? The asymmetry there felt quite jarring to read. It's not jarring, in the context of the comment. The first letter of MGTOW mentioned in the earlier sentence is "men". "Nice guy" is a trope which has seen some usage when talking about relationships.
  - raducu 7y ago
    I meant that MGTOW is a "solution" to the problem for a significant portion of the population and a valid option given that the people taking that road are really ok with it; you are right that a lot of men are not really ok and at peace with that road. I'm married and have been with my wife since our early 20's and we have a baby daughter, there is no bitterness towards women in general. I just find that monogamy is a pretty good compromise and the kind of bullshit happening in the western world spreads everywhere and ultimately is responsible for so much missery in both women and mens lives and society in general. I don't want to impose my views or tell people how to live their lives, I know not all people are the same, some(overwelmingly men) are quite ok in the long run with polygamy/polyamory, BUT I'm against the modern bullshit "anything goes,go get it!" -- I'm absolutely on the "think very carefully how you live your life, the years where you can mess around without big consequences are far fewer than you realize" camp. I am absolutely against enforced monogamy, I am 100% for honesty and people understanding the consequences of their behavior-- and MGTOW or the herbivore men of East Asia is such a natural consequence. I am absolutely disgusted by how people try to spin this from "natural consequences" to "it's the mens fault, of course young women go and have sex with top men, it's the herbivore mens fault that women do this". I am however bitter at the vilification of men in general, the brainwashing of young men, the mistification of women and the relationship between the sexes. I am against false naratives such as: "men are expendable violent pigs that just want sex and are responsible for all the bad things in the world and women are good fairies, women should pursue careers in their 20s and have fun and settle down in their 30s, and men and women are exactly the same biologically".

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago

> discussions around this often get over-run with misogyny and bitterness If the adaptation required is to become part of the 20% of men that 70% of women pursue, bitterness from the 80% of less-desirable men is inevitable since they can't compete, which inhibits their ability to obtain a mate and have a good life. Sure, a mate isn't _technically_ required to live a good life, but in our intensely individualistic society where the number of friends men have is dropping precipitously, relationships form a core of socialization for many men.

bencoder 7y ago
> Sure, a mate isn't _technically_ required to live a good life, but in our intensely individualistic society where the number of friends men have is dropping precipitously, relationships form a core of socialization for many men. Perhaps this is the part where we need to change and improve? Rather than expecting the world or women to align to us.
- belorn 7y ago
  This could be said to any gender issue. If money is required to live a good life, but in our intensely individualistic society where the money women have access to is dropping precipitously, work form a core of income for many women. Perhaps this is the part where they need to change and improve? Rather than expecting the world or men to align to them.

raducu 7y ago

I fail to see how MGTOW is not an answer to this problem. Isn't it a good thing that men who feel they are not attractive to females quit for good the dating scene? Isn't part of the problem the narative that females have been fed -- that they can just have fun in their 20s and then settle down with a nice guy in their 30s? If females knew they won't have the backup option in their 30s, maybe they'd be more willing to choose the monoganous option earlier in life?

bencoder 7y ago
In theory, certainly, mgtow seems fine. In practice, like your message right here, it's coming from a place of bitterness and resentment and a desire to "get back" at women. I prefer not to live like that, regardless of whether I'm currently seeking a partner, so the MGTOW label is inappropriate and any other label would likely get overloaded with similar bitter people. As an aside, why do you refer to men as "men" and "guys", but women as "females"? The asymmetry there felt quite jarring to read.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  > As an aside, why do you refer to men as "men" and "guys", but women as "females"? The asymmetry there felt quite jarring to read. It's not jarring, in the context of the comment. The first letter of MGTOW mentioned in the earlier sentence is "men". "Nice guy" is a trope which has seen some usage when talking about relationships.
- raducu 7y ago
  I meant that MGTOW is a "solution" to the problem for a significant portion of the population and a valid option given that the people taking that road are really ok with it; you are right that a lot of men are not really ok and at peace with that road. I'm married and have been with my wife since our early 20's and we have a baby daughter, there is no bitterness towards women in general. I just find that monogamy is a pretty good compromise and the kind of bullshit happening in the western world spreads everywhere and ultimately is responsible for so much missery in both women and mens lives and society in general. I don't want to impose my views or tell people how to live their lives, I know not all people are the same, some(overwelmingly men) are quite ok in the long run with polygamy/polyamory, BUT I'm against the modern bullshit "anything goes,go get it!" -- I'm absolutely on the "think very carefully how you live your life, the years where you can mess around without big consequences are far fewer than you realize" camp. I am absolutely against enforced monogamy, I am 100% for honesty and people understanding the consequences of their behavior-- and MGTOW or the herbivore men of East Asia is such a natural consequence. I am absolutely disgusted by how people try to spin this from "natural consequences" to "it's the mens fault, of course young women go and have sex with top men, it's the herbivore mens fault that women do this". I am however bitter at the vilification of men in general, the brainwashing of young men, the mistification of women and the relationship between the sexes. I am against false naratives such as: "men are expendable violent pigs that just want sex and are responsible for all the bad things in the world and women are good fairies, women should pursue careers in their 20s and have fun and settle down in their 30s, and men and women are exactly the same biologically".