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If you walk into my house, or request entry, I can treat you however I like. It's my house, my property. If you don't like it go somewhere else. We are all indi

If you walk into my house, or request entry, I can treat you however I like. It's my house, my property. If you don't like it go somewhere else. We are all individuals. If he wants to be angry and make personal insults then people can choose not to interact with him or the things he works on. It should go no further than that.

joshuamorton 7y ago
>If he wants to be angry and make personal insults then people can choose not to interact with him or the things he works on They did. Enough people said "hey if you keep behaving this way we will no longer want to interact with you or the things you work with" that Linus stopped acting that way. It went no further than that.
mj_olnir 7y ago
And that's, in essence, what's happening...? People are saying that "we will not work with you unless you stop being an asshole". It's just happening at the organizational level. Linus is more than free to say whatever he likes, and people are also free to tell him to buzz off. That's how the rest of the world works.
m00x 7y ago
This project influences a ton of people, and if we have a lot of contributors going somewhere else, we'll lose progress we could have gotten otherwise. Linux is bigger than he is now, progress on it helps millions of people directly or indirectly. Think of it more like a company instead of a house. The founder doesn't have free reign to do whatever he wants to his employees. Everyone deserves to be treated respectfully, regardless of the situation.
tonyarkles 7y ago
I both agree with you, and disagree. Using your analogy... you've got 20,000 guests over at your house, and a bunch of them are telling you that you're being an asshole. You like the party you're having, and want to keep the party going. Do you listen to them and consider that there might be some validity to what they're saying? Or kick them out? There's nothing saying that he must listen to them, but it's pragmatically probably a good idea.
- matz1 7y ago
  The thing is with linux is the the party is going to keep on going regardless. He should just ignore them, because what are they going to do ? leave ? fork ? Then go ahead fork.
  - staticassertion 7y ago
    Not pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, not contribute billions in development time, etc. This is already happening. People already choose not to contribute to Linux and Fuschia isn't just some hobby project.
    - mbrumlow 7y ago
      So were are back to "if you offend me, I take your job away". He clearly has added value. He has run one of the MOST successful projects EVER. Most CEOs are never this successful, to so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say.
      - tonyarkles 7y ago
        > so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say He has done a lot of things right! But that doesn't mean that he needs to continue with personal attacks during patch reviews and feature discussions in a public forum. Does it seem possible that the quality of the project could have remained the way it was without things like this being said to contributors (no matter how misguided they are): > Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE FCKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the fck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on? Yes, reading anything one byte at a time is generally a bad idea. That patch should not be accepted. But... saying things like that probably isn't necessary to get the point across. People have been telling him that for a long time, and he's finally sat back, reflected on it, and decided to change. I don't think anyone's suggesting that the project hasn't been wildly successful, nor that it hasn't generally been a great project to contribute to. But over the years there's been some pretty wild things said to nominally-valued contributors, and some of them have left over it.
skywhopper 7y ago
Yes, that's why people asked him to get a handle on himself. Because he has driven away dozens of talented contributors with his bad behavior.
DesiLurker 7y ago
Nope, Linux stopped being Linus's house a long time ago. the fact that thousands of developers have contributed to it made linux what it is right now. you cannot ignore the millions of lines of code contributed by non-linus humans purely because of the virtue of it being opensource. This childish mindset that its 'mine' (mind you not Linus but other projects) has led to unnecessary fragmentation in opensource world and led it to the state it is in now. regarding the situation at hand, linus is effectively a project lead for linux. though I understand the need to create a certain persona or quality-barrier for maintaining quality of linux, I feel his personality & the name calling attitude is actually hurting the kernel community and hindering more active participation.
- mbrumlow 7y ago
  > the fact that thousands of developers have contributed to it made linux what it is right now. If I invited you over to help me work on a car in my garage do I now not own my car? Linux is much more than just the code. And the fact that it simply was not forked to remove Linus shows you this. It is his project, he is the gate keeper.
threatofrain 7y ago
The communications which people are talking about are those which were seen by the world, which is quite beyond anyone's "home", and the public having commentary about it is a kind of natural reciprocation. "It should go not further" (than the home?) is a little odd when things are being hashed out in front of an audience of thousands.
DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
> If you walk into my house, or request entry, I can treat you however I like. If you then give out keys to dozens/hundreds/thousands of other people to come over whenever they want and tell them "Make yourselves at home", you can't be surprised when they start calling you out for shitting in plastic bags in the living room and leaving them there for guests to find. You can try to kick them out, but you'll find it difficult at this point, and you'll lose a lot of your friends in the process. Choices have to be made: do you stick to your guns, or do you choose to reevaluate how you're living your life?
abalone 7y ago
> If you walk into my house, or request entry, I can treat you however I like... If he wants to be angry and make personal insults then people can choose not to interact with him or the things he works on. It should go no further than that. This is inconsistent. Even if you believe OS projects are like “homes” and bullies have the right to treat people however they like in their homes... By the same logic everyone, typing on keyboards in their own homes, has the right to criticize bullies and express their opinions. By proclaiming “it should go no further” that keeping quiet you are implicitly placing restrictions on what they can do in their homes. Heck, they can even do it in your home if they want, until you uninvite them.

joshuamorton 7y ago

>If he wants to be angry and make personal insults then people can choose not to interact with him or the things he works on They did. Enough people said "hey if you keep behaving this way we will no longer want to interact with you or the things you work with" that Linus stopped acting that way. It went no further than that.

mj_olnir 7y ago

And that's, in essence, what's happening...? People are saying that "we will not work with you unless you stop being an asshole". It's just happening at the organizational level. Linus is more than free to say whatever he likes, and people are also free to tell him to buzz off. That's how the rest of the world works.

m00x 7y ago

This project influences a ton of people, and if we have a lot of contributors going somewhere else, we'll lose progress we could have gotten otherwise. Linux is bigger than he is now, progress on it helps millions of people directly or indirectly. Think of it more like a company instead of a house. The founder doesn't have free reign to do whatever he wants to his employees. Everyone deserves to be treated respectfully, regardless of the situation.

tonyarkles 7y ago

I both agree with you, and disagree. Using your analogy... you've got 20,000 guests over at your house, and a bunch of them are telling you that you're being an asshole. You like the party you're having, and want to keep the party going. Do you listen to them and consider that there might be some validity to what they're saying? Or kick them out? There's nothing saying that he must listen to them, but it's pragmatically probably a good idea.

matz1 7y ago
The thing is with linux is the the party is going to keep on going regardless. He should just ignore them, because what are they going to do ? leave ? fork ? Then go ahead fork.
- staticassertion 7y ago
  Not pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, not contribute billions in development time, etc. This is already happening. People already choose not to contribute to Linux and Fuschia isn't just some hobby project.
  - mbrumlow 7y ago
    So were are back to "if you offend me, I take your job away". He clearly has added value. He has run one of the MOST successful projects EVER. Most CEOs are never this successful, to so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say.
    - tonyarkles 7y ago
      > so say he is not doing something mostly right is weird to say He has done a lot of things right! But that doesn't mean that he needs to continue with personal attacks during patch reviews and feature discussions in a public forum. Does it seem possible that the quality of the project could have remained the way it was without things like this being said to contributors (no matter how misguided they are): > Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE FCKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the fck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on? Yes, reading anything one byte at a time is generally a bad idea. That patch should not be accepted. But... saying things like that probably isn't necessary to get the point across. People have been telling him that for a long time, and he's finally sat back, reflected on it, and decided to change. I don't think anyone's suggesting that the project hasn't been wildly successful, nor that it hasn't generally been a great project to contribute to. But over the years there's been some pretty wild things said to nominally-valued contributors, and some of them have left over it.

skywhopper 7y ago

Yes, that's why people asked him to get a handle on himself. Because he has driven away dozens of talented contributors with his bad behavior.

DesiLurker 7y ago

Nope, Linux stopped being Linus's house a long time ago. the fact that thousands of developers have contributed to it made linux what it is right now. you cannot ignore the millions of lines of code contributed by non-linus humans purely because of the virtue of it being opensource. This childish mindset that its 'mine' (mind you not Linus but other projects) has led to unnecessary fragmentation in opensource world and led it to the state it is in now. regarding the situation at hand, linus is effectively a project lead for linux. though I understand the need to create a certain persona or quality-barrier for maintaining quality of linux, I feel his personality & the name calling attitude is actually hurting the kernel community and hindering more active participation.

mbrumlow 7y ago
> the fact that thousands of developers have contributed to it made linux what it is right now. If I invited you over to help me work on a car in my garage do I now not own my car? Linux is much more than just the code. And the fact that it simply was not forked to remove Linus shows you this. It is his project, he is the gate keeper.

threatofrain 7y ago

The communications which people are talking about are those which were seen by the world, which is quite beyond anyone's "home", and the public having commentary about it is a kind of natural reciprocation. "It should go not further" (than the home?) is a little odd when things are being hashed out in front of an audience of thousands.

DonaldPShimoda 7y ago

> If you walk into my house, or request entry, I can treat you however I like. If you then give out keys to dozens/hundreds/thousands of other people to come over whenever they want and tell them "Make yourselves at home", you can't be surprised when they start calling you out for shitting in plastic bags in the living room and leaving them there for guests to find. You can try to kick them out, but you'll find it difficult at this point, and you'll lose a lot of your friends in the process. Choices have to be made: do you stick to your guns, or do you choose to reevaluate how you're living your life?

abalone 7y ago

> If you walk into my house, or request entry, I can treat you however I like... If he wants to be angry and make personal insults then people can choose not to interact with him or the things he works on. It should go no further than that. This is inconsistent. Even if you believe OS projects are like “homes” and bullies have the right to treat people however they like in their homes... By the same logic everyone, typing on keyboards in their own homes, has the right to criticize bullies and express their opinions. By proclaiming “it should go no further” that keeping quiet you are implicitly placing restrictions on what they can do in their homes. Heck, they can even do it in your home if they want, until you uninvite them.