6 ms·

> It's surely doable in big organizations but small businesses it's an overwhelming cost And yet, there they are ... still having small businesses, and consult

> It's surely doable in big organizations but small businesses it's an overwhelming cost And yet, there they are ... still having small businesses, and consulting shops, and all manner of people continuing operations in the face of such start conditions ;) edit: Holy crap, I hadn't even finished reading your comment > If I am looking for 3rd programmer in my 2 person small company I will not risk hiring a young woman as getting a new employee to the stage where they contribute value is a huge cost. wat ... this is just ... this is a terrible thought process and ideology.

woodpanel 8y ago
Don't like the outcome of his thought-process as well but to be fair, it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. The answer to this in my opinion is a job-market with less job-security regulation (so that "getting new workers up to speed" will be the norm not the exception for companies) coupled with a tighter social security net (maternity leave paid for by the government) and of course a right-to-return (although, if "getting up to speed" is the norm, it might not be needed anyways).
- rytor718 8y ago
  > it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people.
  - bluecalm 8y ago
    Man, small businesses often don't have any "organizational planning". You work every day and hope the others (maybe one, two or three people) do as well. You go by and hope for the best. Most often you fail or don't really make much. Once you are the stage of "organizational preparation and planning" it's a different ball-game. The problem is that you have to somehow start and most of the world isn't full of VS money where starting means you get a budget of several million. You mostly start with whatever little savings you have and hope your first orders come fast enough so you can pay bills when savings dry up.
    - wolco 8y ago
      At that stage you are not hiring full time employees. You give out short contracts with promises for bigger ones. Someone always leaves and you are not paying the salary of the persompn on leave.
  - rdlecler1 8y ago
    Someone running a small business is usually most concerned about survival, not individuality. And if you think small businesses first priority should be substantial organizational preparation and planning then it's clear you've never tried to start a company. The main focus for most entrepreneurs is survival in face of the market. Fail at that and you are doomed to fail. I'm both a parent and a small business owner and I think 1-year parental leave is ridiculous.
    - adamsea 8y ago
      If the law applys to everyone then wouldn’t that one particular part of the playing field be even?
      - lliamander 8y ago
        That just means that more businesses fail that could have otherwise succeeded.
        bobthepanda 8y ago
        You could say the same thing about minimum wage, safety and environmental regulations, child labor laws, workers taking weekends, etc. At some point, as a society we set a minimum bar on what kind of successful businesses we want to employ people. What that minimum bar is can be debated, but "more businesses will fail" is not exactly a straightforward indicator of the value of a regulation. Plus, certain types of labor laws, particularly those around leave, only apply to businesses above a certain size.
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        It’s a fixed cost. The greater your resources the less it matters. So like every other fixed cost it makes things harder for all companies but it’s much easier for large companies to deal with. Like how GPDR is great for Google.
    - wolco 8y ago
      You run a business an employee can quit with 2 weeks notice. If preparing for that requires substantial organization preparation you will be doomed to fail. Parental leave gives you months of notice time with periods of overlay where training could happen. It should be easier.
  - woodpanel 8y ago
    > This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. I have to disagree: If a cultural obstacle at all, to me it's rather labeling civilizational accomplishments like ownership or property rights as a "cultural obstacle". > We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people While I can't speak for the US, in Germany we have a pretty generous m/p/x-aterinty leave system. But still only a few fathers take advantage of it. Certainly it's not because of culture (it's not the 1950s anymore). It might be just the plain truth that it is deeper ingrained in us. Another big factor is the high increase of bachelor degrees. 40% of our high-school students [1] go to college [2], of which 3 out of 4 finish. By the time they finish they are in their mid-twenties and depending on what they've studied [3] will add another two years for a masters degree. In effect you'll get women who enter the job market 10 years later than their mothers did. So when the biological clock ticks louder they are often faced with a dilemma: Either less kids than originally wished for, or give up your first career years in exchange for fitting as much child-bearing in them as possible. Again, I don't see how individualism is at the epicenter here. Instead I'd take a good look at lack of intelligent regulation (nudging), medicine and misguided education policy. [1] & [2] since educational systems are complex to translate, I just went with the most aproximate US counterpart [3] mostly because the job prospects in a given field are non-existent with 'just' a bachelor's degree
    - matthewmacleod 8y ago
      Certainly it's not because of culture It’s precisely because of culture. “Plain truth” is a bit of a sham.
  - munk-a 8y ago
    > We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people. Uh... that's not valuing the individual (or individuality, the ability to make choices freely for one's self). The lack of paid parental leave adds an outside a government mandated influence to the decision of whether to have children or not. Unless... you're talking about the individual rights of the corporation to not have to pay parental leave, through some twisted extension of citizen's united. As a society it benefits us to encourage people to have children, so making the process even more difficult is a bit silly.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      You don't have to be a corporation to hire people - think sole proprietorship. I've been thinking that it might be an interesting experiment to apply some of the restrictions that we have only to corporations, but allow more leeway to individuals. So e.g. if you're a sole proprietor, you can arbitrarily discriminate in employment or service (it's your personal freedom of association), but if you register as an LLC, then that comes with the usual strings attached (since an artificial entity doesn't have proper personhood and any rights associated with that). I suspect most businesses, even small, would still be LLCs.
    - bluecalm 8y ago
      Parental leave as currently implemented in European countries incentivize having children later in life which is happening resulting in less children overall. There is absolutely no reason employers should be burdened by parental leave. If we as a society decide we want to support parents let's collect enough taxes and have the government pay. If the support is independent of your job status and salary it will remove twisted incentive to wait till your 30s do have children (which is the case when benefits are based on your current salary).
      - Symbiote 8y ago
        Do you have any source for that? My parental leave entitlement has been the same since my first job after graduation at 22.
- vidarh 8y ago
  Which is why you'll see increasing pressure for longer paternity leave in places like Norway, so that it's harder to discriminate to avoid dealing with this.
ThomPete 8y ago
Unless you are running your own small company you are in no position to judge other people. It doesn't sound like it's an ideology but rather necessity.

woodpanel 8y ago

Don't like the outcome of his thought-process as well but to be fair, it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. The answer to this in my opinion is a job-market with less job-security regulation (so that "getting new workers up to speed" will be the norm not the exception for companies) coupled with a tighter social security net (maternity leave paid for by the government) and of course a right-to-return (although, if "getting up to speed" is the norm, it might not be needed anyways).

rytor718 8y ago
> it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people.
- bluecalm 8y ago
  Man, small businesses often don't have any "organizational planning". You work every day and hope the others (maybe one, two or three people) do as well. You go by and hope for the best. Most often you fail or don't really make much. Once you are the stage of "organizational preparation and planning" it's a different ball-game. The problem is that you have to somehow start and most of the world isn't full of VS money where starting means you get a budget of several million. You mostly start with whatever little savings you have and hope your first orders come fast enough so you can pay bills when savings dry up.
  - wolco 8y ago
    At that stage you are not hiring full time employees. You give out short contracts with promises for bigger ones. Someone always leaves and you are not paying the salary of the persompn on leave.
- rdlecler1 8y ago
  Someone running a small business is usually most concerned about survival, not individuality. And if you think small businesses first priority should be substantial organizational preparation and planning then it's clear you've never tried to start a company. The main focus for most entrepreneurs is survival in face of the market. Fail at that and you are doomed to fail. I'm both a parent and a small business owner and I think 1-year parental leave is ridiculous.
  - adamsea 8y ago
    If the law applys to everyone then wouldn’t that one particular part of the playing field be even?
    - lliamander 8y ago
      That just means that more businesses fail that could have otherwise succeeded.
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        You could say the same thing about minimum wage, safety and environmental regulations, child labor laws, workers taking weekends, etc. At some point, as a society we set a minimum bar on what kind of successful businesses we want to employ people. What that minimum bar is can be debated, but "more businesses will fail" is not exactly a straightforward indicator of the value of a regulation. Plus, certain types of labor laws, particularly those around leave, only apply to businesses above a certain size.
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      It’s a fixed cost. The greater your resources the less it matters. So like every other fixed cost it makes things harder for all companies but it’s much easier for large companies to deal with. Like how GPDR is great for Google.
  - wolco 8y ago
    You run a business an employee can quit with 2 weeks notice. If preparing for that requires substantial organization preparation you will be doomed to fail. Parental leave gives you months of notice time with periods of overlay where training could happen. It should be easier.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  > This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. I have to disagree: If a cultural obstacle at all, to me it's rather labeling civilizational accomplishments like ownership or property rights as a "cultural obstacle". > We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people While I can't speak for the US, in Germany we have a pretty generous m/p/x-aterinty leave system. But still only a few fathers take advantage of it. Certainly it's not because of culture (it's not the 1950s anymore). It might be just the plain truth that it is deeper ingrained in us. Another big factor is the high increase of bachelor degrees. 40% of our high-school students [1] go to college [2], of which 3 out of 4 finish. By the time they finish they are in their mid-twenties and depending on what they've studied [3] will add another two years for a masters degree. In effect you'll get women who enter the job market 10 years later than their mothers did. So when the biological clock ticks louder they are often faced with a dilemma: Either less kids than originally wished for, or give up your first career years in exchange for fitting as much child-bearing in them as possible. Again, I don't see how individualism is at the epicenter here. Instead I'd take a good look at lack of intelligent regulation (nudging), medicine and misguided education policy. [1] & [2] since educational systems are complex to translate, I just went with the most aproximate US counterpart [3] mostly because the job prospects in a given field are non-existent with 'just' a bachelor's degree
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago
    Certainly it's not because of culture It’s precisely because of culture. “Plain truth” is a bit of a sham.
- munk-a 8y ago
  > We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people. Uh... that's not valuing the individual (or individuality, the ability to make choices freely for one's self). The lack of paid parental leave adds an outside a government mandated influence to the decision of whether to have children or not. Unless... you're talking about the individual rights of the corporation to not have to pay parental leave, through some twisted extension of citizen's united. As a society it benefits us to encourage people to have children, so making the process even more difficult is a bit silly.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    You don't have to be a corporation to hire people - think sole proprietorship. I've been thinking that it might be an interesting experiment to apply some of the restrictions that we have only to corporations, but allow more leeway to individuals. So e.g. if you're a sole proprietor, you can arbitrarily discriminate in employment or service (it's your personal freedom of association), but if you register as an LLC, then that comes with the usual strings attached (since an artificial entity doesn't have proper personhood and any rights associated with that). I suspect most businesses, even small, would still be LLCs.
  - bluecalm 8y ago
    Parental leave as currently implemented in European countries incentivize having children later in life which is happening resulting in less children overall. There is absolutely no reason employers should be burdened by parental leave. If we as a society decide we want to support parents let's collect enough taxes and have the government pay. If the support is independent of your job status and salary it will remove twisted incentive to wait till your 30s do have children (which is the case when benefits are based on your current salary).
    - Symbiote 8y ago
      Do you have any source for that? My parental leave entitlement has been the same since my first job after graduation at 22.
vidarh 8y ago
Which is why you'll see increasing pressure for longer paternity leave in places like Norway, so that it's harder to discriminate to avoid dealing with this.

ThomPete 8y ago

Unless you are running your own small company you are in no position to judge other people. It doesn't sound like it's an ideology but rather necessity.