5 ms·

"The city is also getting ready to use the parking data to help people find a parking space. " I can see the "real" conversations between the sales person and

by srcmap 8y ago

"The city is also getting ready to use the parking data to help people find a parking space. " I can see the "real" conversations between the sales person and city officials. "We can tell you when and where exactly the parking violations is happening and guide enforcers directly to that car. This is not an expense, it is a revenue generating machine." Every $1000 investment generate $xxxx ARR ticket revenue - easy math.

mc32 8y ago
And still they won't be able to help law enforcement track down the delinquent who broke your car window or worse.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Right. It's OK to spy on everyone except the homeless and vagrants, because that might be offensive.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  The delinquent who broke your car window has a pretty good chance of not paying whatever fine he's given (and arresting him when they come across him after a bench warrant is issued still costs money, even if he does eventually pay). You will almost certainly pay your parking ticket promptly and without causing the system to incur additional cost. Going after generally law abiding normal people has a much better ROI.
  - kolbe 8y ago
    I hope government doesn’t turn into that. The legal system is supposed to maximize justice, not revenue.
    - longhorn_alum 8y ago
      Meanwhile, on planet Earth
      - kolbe 8y ago
        The United States does not maximize revenue in the slightest. We routinely use the justice system to unnecessarily prosecute and incarcerate the poor at a huge expense.
        nvusuvu 8y ago
        For-profit prison systems and perverse incentives.
        dkonofalski 8y ago
        I think you're looking at that from the wrong perspective. It's definitely generating revenue for someone but I think you're picking the wrong someone.
        flyingpenguin 8y ago
        That's because you are looking at the United States as a whole. This police department ticketed this person for something and gets the revenue of the ticket. All other effects are costs for other departments. Positive on the books. This Justice processing department gets budgeted for processing the ticket. All other effects are costs for other departments. Positive on the books. ... This Court department gets budgeted for filing a warrant for this poor person's refusal to pay. The capturing and holding of this person will be a cost for other departments. Positive on the books. ... This prison gets paid for holding this prisoner, positive on the books. Every department is doing things which benefit them and the costs for that specific action don't show up negatively (even if they spawn later actions in other departments that generate costs for them). Every department is doing right by itself in the moment, and millions of dollars are lost.
- briffle 8y ago
  In the state of Oregon, they can't prosecute car thieves, unless they literally catch them in the process of breaking in. (or the thief confesses to stealing the car) All they have to say, is they borrowed it from a friend, and didn't realize it was stolen. Something like this might actually be welcomed in Portland to cut down on car theft (its one of the top in the nation, since they literally walk right back out of the police station 2 hours later) https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2017/11/29/in-portland-you-can-steal-cars-over-and-over-and-get-away-with-it-heres-how/ https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2017/11/29/in-portland-you...
Spooky23 8y ago
That will be driven by rfid enabled plates. Many jurisdictions are already doing lpr driven ticketing. A guy drives down the street, he parks at the end and prints the tickets.
- jstanley 8y ago
  You don't even need RFID numberplates. The unique IDs broadcast by the (mandatory on new cars) tyre pressure monitoring sensors will do a pretty good job of uniquely identifying cars.
  - cc439 8y ago
    Most TPM systems work by comparing the difference in wheel speed using the ABS sensors though (lower pressure = lower diameter = higher wheel speed than the other 3 wheels = low air pressure warning).
    - jstanley 8y ago
      Nice, I didn't know that!
    - jhayward 8y ago
      Ah, no. They all work by having an air pressure sensor in the interior of the wheel.
      - jsight 8y ago
        The comment you're replying to refers to an indirect system: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=44 https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=... I'm not under the impression that indirect is the most common system, as every car that I have owned has used a direct system.
        dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        Many vehicles are switching to indirect measurement (this is just my impression, I haven't exactly been tracking which years/models use what system). It's certainly cheaper, you only need to write the algorithm once. Early systems mostly used sensors. I'm not sure why they used sensors to begin with since it's not like there's been a big improvement in VR sensors (the thing used to track wheel speed) enabling more accurate measurement. I suspect that the unwieldiness of big engineering organizations plays a role.
nck4222 8y ago
I don't know if this was meant as a negative, positive, or neutral outcome of this, but I see it as positive. Public parking isn't going anywhere, so if this program can pay for itself by increasing parking revenue, while decreasing costs that it takes to generate that revenue (IE, more efficient checking of meters), then all the other civic benefits this data/program can create come "free". Such as improving fire response times, while decreasing cost of services: >It would be easier if we could use the traffic signals and street lights to clear the road from Point A to Point B, and then have the [streetlight] system detect how the fire truck is moving through the street, restoring traffic flow behind it. That would save us money on fire stations, because we build them based on response times. Improving response times means we might not need as many stations. The cynics will say this is will be used as excuse to remove resources for fire fighters, but if it can be done responsibly, and the data shows that outcomes will improve (and that outcomes do improve after implementing), I'm all for it.
- xapata 8y ago
  While we're at it, let's automate speeding tickets. Free up the police for other crimes.
  - mikepurvis 8y ago
    There's been a lot of work done in this area, with predictable backlash. I think the issue is that the most dangerous speeding is the kind which occurs in neighbourhoods and by schools ("50km/h in a 30km/h zone"). But the easiest to apply automatic enforcement against is highway speeding ("130km/h in a 100km/h zone"), so people legitimately complain that the enforcement isn't being applied where the danger is. The worst of it is that all the infrastructure is in place already for average speed enforcement on toll roads, since you know when everyone gets on and off the highway and all their license plates. But isn't the whole point of a toll road that you pay for the privilege of being out of traffic and going as fast as you can? Who wants to pay for a toll transponder only to get a bunch of speeding tickets in the mail the next month?
  - Veelox 8y ago
    As long as the change we well advertised and gave people time to adjust norms, I would be all for it.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
The comments about "optimizing for law enforcement" (or something like that) were a dead giveaway as to who's driving the way this system will be implemented.
kolbe 8y ago
Why send enforcement? Get a neural net to determine who is illegally parked, and automatically send a ticket.

by srcmap 8y ago

mc32 8y ago

And still they won't be able to help law enforcement track down the delinquent who broke your car window or worse.

ams6110 8y ago
Right. It's OK to spy on everyone except the homeless and vagrants, because that might be offensive.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
The delinquent who broke your car window has a pretty good chance of not paying whatever fine he's given (and arresting him when they come across him after a bench warrant is issued still costs money, even if he does eventually pay). You will almost certainly pay your parking ticket promptly and without causing the system to incur additional cost. Going after generally law abiding normal people has a much better ROI.
- kolbe 8y ago
  I hope government doesn’t turn into that. The legal system is supposed to maximize justice, not revenue.
  - longhorn_alum 8y ago
    Meanwhile, on planet Earth
    - kolbe 8y ago
      The United States does not maximize revenue in the slightest. We routinely use the justice system to unnecessarily prosecute and incarcerate the poor at a huge expense.
      - nvusuvu 8y ago
        For-profit prison systems and perverse incentives.
      - dkonofalski 8y ago
        I think you're looking at that from the wrong perspective. It's definitely generating revenue for someone but I think you're picking the wrong someone.
      - flyingpenguin 8y ago
        That's because you are looking at the United States as a whole. This police department ticketed this person for something and gets the revenue of the ticket. All other effects are costs for other departments. Positive on the books. This Justice processing department gets budgeted for processing the ticket. All other effects are costs for other departments. Positive on the books. ... This Court department gets budgeted for filing a warrant for this poor person's refusal to pay. The capturing and holding of this person will be a cost for other departments. Positive on the books. ... This prison gets paid for holding this prisoner, positive on the books. Every department is doing things which benefit them and the costs for that specific action don't show up negatively (even if they spawn later actions in other departments that generate costs for them). Every department is doing right by itself in the moment, and millions of dollars are lost.
briffle 8y ago
In the state of Oregon, they can't prosecute car thieves, unless they literally catch them in the process of breaking in. (or the thief confesses to stealing the car) All they have to say, is they borrowed it from a friend, and didn't realize it was stolen. Something like this might actually be welcomed in Portland to cut down on car theft (its one of the top in the nation, since they literally walk right back out of the police station 2 hours later) https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2017/11/29/in-portland-you-can-steal-cars-over-and-over-and-get-away-with-it-heres-how/ https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2017/11/29/in-portland-you...

Spooky23 8y ago

That will be driven by rfid enabled plates. Many jurisdictions are already doing lpr driven ticketing. A guy drives down the street, he parks at the end and prints the tickets.

jstanley 8y ago
You don't even need RFID numberplates. The unique IDs broadcast by the (mandatory on new cars) tyre pressure monitoring sensors will do a pretty good job of uniquely identifying cars.
- cc439 8y ago
  Most TPM systems work by comparing the difference in wheel speed using the ABS sensors though (lower pressure = lower diameter = higher wheel speed than the other 3 wheels = low air pressure warning).
  - jstanley 8y ago
    Nice, I didn't know that!
  - jhayward 8y ago
    Ah, no. They all work by having an air pressure sensor in the interior of the wheel.
    - jsight 8y ago
      The comment you're replying to refers to an indirect system: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=44 https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=... I'm not under the impression that indirect is the most common system, as every car that I have owned has used a direct system.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        Many vehicles are switching to indirect measurement (this is just my impression, I haven't exactly been tracking which years/models use what system). It's certainly cheaper, you only need to write the algorithm once. Early systems mostly used sensors. I'm not sure why they used sensors to begin with since it's not like there's been a big improvement in VR sensors (the thing used to track wheel speed) enabling more accurate measurement. I suspect that the unwieldiness of big engineering organizations plays a role.

nck4222 8y ago

I don't know if this was meant as a negative, positive, or neutral outcome of this, but I see it as positive. Public parking isn't going anywhere, so if this program can pay for itself by increasing parking revenue, while decreasing costs that it takes to generate that revenue (IE, more efficient checking of meters), then all the other civic benefits this data/program can create come "free". Such as improving fire response times, while decreasing cost of services: >It would be easier if we could use the traffic signals and street lights to clear the road from Point A to Point B, and then have the [streetlight] system detect how the fire truck is moving through the street, restoring traffic flow behind it. That would save us money on fire stations, because we build them based on response times. Improving response times means we might not need as many stations. The cynics will say this is will be used as excuse to remove resources for fire fighters, but if it can be done responsibly, and the data shows that outcomes will improve (and that outcomes do improve after implementing), I'm all for it.

xapata 8y ago
While we're at it, let's automate speeding tickets. Free up the police for other crimes.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  There's been a lot of work done in this area, with predictable backlash. I think the issue is that the most dangerous speeding is the kind which occurs in neighbourhoods and by schools ("50km/h in a 30km/h zone"). But the easiest to apply automatic enforcement against is highway speeding ("130km/h in a 100km/h zone"), so people legitimately complain that the enforcement isn't being applied where the danger is. The worst of it is that all the infrastructure is in place already for average speed enforcement on toll roads, since you know when everyone gets on and off the highway and all their license plates. But isn't the whole point of a toll road that you pay for the privilege of being out of traffic and going as fast as you can? Who wants to pay for a toll transponder only to get a bunch of speeding tickets in the mail the next month?
- Veelox 8y ago
  As long as the change we well advertised and gave people time to adjust norms, I would be all for it.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

The comments about "optimizing for law enforcement" (or something like that) were a dead giveaway as to who's driving the way this system will be implemented.

kolbe 8y ago

Why send enforcement? Get a neural net to determine who is illegally parked, and automatically send a ticket.