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Does this have any bearing on running linux on macbooks?

by sudo-i 8y ago

monocasa 8y ago
AFAIK, there's no way to inject new keys, so you have a exclusive choice between running Linux and having secure boot enabled. So it doesn't stop you in a way a game console might, but you lose some features of the hardware by doing so.
- MrBingley 8y ago
  Even with secure boot disabled you can't install Linux on the internal SSD. Installing Linux on a Mac has already been very flaky for the last few years, but now is impossible. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/463422/how-can-you-get-any-version-of-linux-to-see-the-2018-macbook-pro-ssd https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/463422/how-can-you-...
  - nneonneo 8y ago
    The likely problem is a lack of driver support for using the T2 as an SSD controller. I don’t think, based on Apple’s white paper, that they did anything to explicitly block Linux from accessing the internal SSD - it just needs to go through the T2 for that. Hopefully someone is working on the necessary driver support - these laptops are still very new so maybe nobody has gotten around to it yet.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      Yes, the issue is that Linux doesn’t know how to talk to the SSD, not Apple stopping Linux from accessing the SSD.
    - michaelmrose 8y ago
      Apple is actively blocking unsigned software from accessing the internal storage as a security measure and providing no means to add allowed keys. Its possible there is a defect in this security that could be exploited but it would be explicitly a bug and would be liable to be patched in the next version of the software. You have completely misread the situation. This is apple taking over your machine while still expecting you to pay for it.
      - yeloboy 8y ago
        Not if you disable secure boot. Imo they're probably right about Linux not being able to talk to T2. We'll see about that, I guess.
  - grecy 8y ago
    Interesting that Windows 10 installed via Boot Camp is an allowable exception, but Linux is not. I wonder if Apple have an official stance on that.. i.e. "we're working on it", or "never".
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      This is because Apple has included the keys for Windows, but has not added the Microsoft UEFI key for Linux.
josteink 8y ago
> Does this have any bearing on running linux on macbooks Unlike on PCs, on T2 Macs Linux will only be bootable with Secure boot disabled making the system much less secure. To make matters worse, the T2 chip administers access to the built in SSD, so it will be completely inaccessible for Linux to use for anything. When Apple stops supporting this machine, you won’t be able to keep it chugging by loading another OS. I could say Apple is trying to terminate the only remaining computing platform which respects end-user freedom and ownership, but I’m not sure if it would be a joke or not...
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > the T2 chip administers access to the built in SSD, so it will be completely inaccessible for Linux to use for anything. This isn’t true. You can install Linux on this, providing you disable Secure Boot. You can’t currently access the SSD, but that’s more the result of a driver not existing than it being inherently disallowed.
  - Dunedan 8y ago
    > You can’t currently access the SSD, but that’s more the result of a driver not existing than it being inherently disallowed. That's not clear yet. There is a NVMe driver available in Linux which works fine with pre-T2 Macs. On T2 Macs however the whole platform resets a few seconds after initializing the NVMe controller. The question is: Is that a bug in the driver or NVMe implementation of the T2 chip or something Apple does intentionally?
    - X-Istence 8y ago
      Let's not attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to incompetence.
      - floatboth 8y ago
        In a chip that has "secure" in its name, it's quite likely that a sudden system shutdown is intentional..

Does this have any bearing on running linux on macbooks?

by sudo-i 8y ago

Does this have any bearing on running linux on macbooks?

AFAIK, there's no way to inject new keys, so you have a exclusive choice between running Linux and having secure boot enabled. So it doesn't stop you in a way a game console might, but you lose some features of the hardware by doing so.

MrBingley 8y ago
Even with secure boot disabled you can't install Linux on the internal SSD. Installing Linux on a Mac has already been very flaky for the last few years, but now is impossible. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/463422/how-can-you-get-any-version-of-linux-to-see-the-2018-macbook-pro-ssd https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/463422/how-can-you-...
- nneonneo 8y ago
  The likely problem is a lack of driver support for using the T2 as an SSD controller. I don’t think, based on Apple’s white paper, that they did anything to explicitly block Linux from accessing the internal SSD - it just needs to go through the T2 for that. Hopefully someone is working on the necessary driver support - these laptops are still very new so maybe nobody has gotten around to it yet.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Yes, the issue is that Linux doesn’t know how to talk to the SSD, not Apple stopping Linux from accessing the SSD.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    Apple is actively blocking unsigned software from accessing the internal storage as a security measure and providing no means to add allowed keys. Its possible there is a defect in this security that could be exploited but it would be explicitly a bug and would be liable to be patched in the next version of the software. You have completely misread the situation. This is apple taking over your machine while still expecting you to pay for it.
    - yeloboy 8y ago
      Not if you disable secure boot. Imo they're probably right about Linux not being able to talk to T2. We'll see about that, I guess.
- grecy 8y ago
  Interesting that Windows 10 installed via Boot Camp is an allowable exception, but Linux is not. I wonder if Apple have an official stance on that.. i.e. "we're working on it", or "never".
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    This is because Apple has included the keys for Windows, but has not added the Microsoft UEFI key for Linux.

josteink 8y ago

> Does this have any bearing on running linux on macbooks Unlike on PCs, on T2 Macs Linux will only be bootable with Secure boot disabled making the system much less secure. To make matters worse, the T2 chip administers access to the built in SSD, so it will be completely inaccessible for Linux to use for anything. When Apple stops supporting this machine, you won’t be able to keep it chugging by loading another OS. I could say Apple is trying to terminate the only remaining computing platform which respects end-user freedom and ownership, but I’m not sure if it would be a joke or not...

saagarjha 8y ago
> the T2 chip administers access to the built in SSD, so it will be completely inaccessible for Linux to use for anything. This isn’t true. You can install Linux on this, providing you disable Secure Boot. You can’t currently access the SSD, but that’s more the result of a driver not existing than it being inherently disallowed.
- Dunedan 8y ago
  > You can’t currently access the SSD, but that’s more the result of a driver not existing than it being inherently disallowed. That's not clear yet. There is a NVMe driver available in Linux which works fine with pre-T2 Macs. On T2 Macs however the whole platform resets a few seconds after initializing the NVMe controller. The question is: Is that a bug in the driver or NVMe implementation of the T2 chip or something Apple does intentionally?
  - X-Istence 8y ago
    Let's not attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to incompetence.
    - floatboth 8y ago
      In a chip that has "secure" in its name, it's quite likely that a sudden system shutdown is intentional..