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If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their mai

If I read the article correctly, this wasn't about building a new 'Google campus' (i.e. a huge building to house a large number of Google employees as their main regional HQ). This was about building Campus Berlin, an incubator for startups like they pioneered first in London and then brought to other cities. See https://www.campus.co/berlin/de https://www.campus.co/berlin/de and https://www.campus.co/london/en https://www.campus.co/london/en. It's easy to misunderstand this because of what the term 'campus' is typically associated with. I live in London, and when I say 'I'm going to Google's Campus', I often need to qualify that I'm not going to their main office complex at King's Cross. There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: that this wasn't a hub for all of Google's employees, but rather a place that would help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. The kind of smaller startups that would be home at a Campus style incubator would not be fueling high paid Google salaries and would be a lot less likely to drive up rents e.g..

SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1) I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143
- aesh2Xa1 8y ago
  The article lists that reason (gentrification) explicitly. The only other one given in there is that Google is evil (data collection, tax evasion, etc.). Someone else pointed out that the type of hosted campus would not lead to the same gentrification when the startups don't offer high salaries, but I think the point is still valid. At least, I do not know of another Google campus where this was not the case... I could be wrong. As an aside, I dislike the term "techbro." It's obviously pejorative and I hardly ever see anything kind used to describe men working in the IT/CS sector. Just that and "neckbeard."
- pteredactyl 8y ago
  The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally, activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one. I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical. But why is tech framed the opposite of art? Why is tech equal to techbro? Yea there are always bad apples. But I wonder what Da Vinci would think about holding art in the opposite category as tech? I'd argue they're more synonymous than opposite. To me, there's creativity. Both art and tech are creative. Applied creativity pertains to both code or a paint canvas. Either way, the best, most valuable work to society is often never been done before. Can anyone name an art piece (or if I'm being generous, an art movement) in the last 15 years that's made the level of impact as Google? Or cryptocurrency? Ultimately, to me, the 'artists' need to up their game. Big time. [1] Protest city hall if you feel gentrified. Especially in SF where it's largely illegal to build housing. Also, regarding gentrification, you don't hear the positive stories of immigrant families whose businesses flourish because of increased capital in an area, or those who feel safer, or even those who cashed out and sold their 50k house for 1.2 million. Again you hear a largely misdirected, dated and one-sided argument.
  - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
    I think your comment is extremely patronizing and arrogant ("To me, it shows haters' level of intellect.") and a "let them eat cake" attitude that to me shows a clear lack of understanding of why people have become so anti-tech over the past 2 decades.
    - pteredactyl 8y ago
      If you see the world in black and white then yes, I will question your intellect. If you look at some of the best, most novel tech and do not see 'art' then yes I will question your intellect. I could go on.
    - avip 8y ago
      I think we should stop using these empty terms in discussion. They contribute nothing, it’s just ad hominem.
- Xylakant 8y ago
  The building was originally renovated by ID Media, one of the largest digital media/web development companies in Berlin at the end of the nineties. It’s been filled with IT companies ever since they went bankrupt and currently has an incubator as one of the renters. It’s never been full of artists for the last 20 years. So while I’m not surprised (and very much not sad) that the plans didn’t work out for a host of reasons I really don’t think that the campus would have led to substantial gentrification in that region. Disclosure: we (still) have our office in the complex.
  - cyphunk 8y ago
    The mere mention of google already turned up into most housing and office space sale adverts. The effect on housing costs is real but the amount debatable. Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years and protestors are looking for symbolic wins to make the city more urgently address the problem.
    - Xylakant 8y ago
      > Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years Exactly my point. The rents are on the rise with our without google. I really don't think that the victory is anything but a symbolic win. It does nothing to push the city to solve that issue.
      - cyphunk 8y ago
        Companies paying workers 3 to 10 times the average wage for an area adds real stress. Berlin's problems are that, and also: + A global shift toward freelance and remote work letting people take a risk and move to a new place. + The first German renaissance back toward the east after the wall fell. The older generation in the west still remember Berlin and people from Berlin in a negative light, but their children have quiet a different impression and their parents are alltohappy to buy property for them in under-priced Berlin. Additionally reunification gutted all industry in the east causing a renter exodus to larger east German cities + A global debt surplus and rich people everywhere looking for stable places to stash wealth with Germany's open markets an attractive destination. In some odd way financially conservative Germans think they win with this, not considering how it increases costs of all social services and thereby their tax burden as well. Focusing on overpriced jobs is definitely only one of many places to start. Google just made it very easy that people target them first because their products are so disliked for their lack of care for privacy: post-snowden I'm not sure I know of a single service Google has switched to being e2e encrypted.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  What makes "artists" better to live around than "techbros"? Having lived in my fair share of neighborhoods inhabited by both, I can say neither is better/worse than the other. It's basically the difference to people living off their parent's money (artists) vs. people living off money they make themselves (tech workers).
- heroyang 8y ago
  These people are artists? It's not art if it's ugly. These creative types are almost always the same, white failures who think they can talk back to their superiors. I think I might buy up some trendy property just so I can throw these disgusting junky whites on to the street.
- tomjen3 8y ago
  If you can replace techbros with $MINORITY and the artists with white people, you can see why I have no sympathy for that argument, or the people who put it forth.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
    And yet the results are the exact opposite - when the tech scene moves in, prices and rents go up. It's clearly not a good analogy if it produces the opposite result.
- marcell 8y ago
  Since when is a bunch of nerds “techbros”? I really hate this term. If I like programming and computers and databases, am I a techbro? Is this supposed to be a bad thing?
  - Barrin92 8y ago
    Nobody dislikes a good-natured nerd. As someone from Germany maybe to give some local perspective, what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city. That's the sort of thing that invokes the image of a "tech bro" and this is what people don't want in Berlin. People don't want the local scene replaced with overpriced chain stores and electric scooters and multinationals dictating city development policy. The CCC has its roots in Germany and we've always had a hacker and nerd friendly culture.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      "what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city." What on earth are you talking about? Who are these magical people who build castles? And Berlin is not hugely more 'communal' than anywhere else.
      - StudentStuff 8y ago
        Amazon, Google, Facebook. Look at the castles they've built in Seattle, you aren't getting in unless you are an employee or are escorted by an employee. None of those companies need this level of security, and most other businesses you can literally wander into during office hours, but that is generally not the case with these three.
        sonnyblarney 8y ago
        You are not allowed into any corporate office, in any city - unless you work there. Every company definitely has security, even small one's, and this has nothing to do with the FANGs. Try to waltz into the UBS or Deutchebank building and see if you can just wander around. Most banks have considerably more security than the FANGS and ever since 9/11 many NYC buildings have a ton of security. You need to get a visitors badge with a photo they take of you on the spot to simply go to a meeting in some towers in the US. You need 15 minutes just to get in.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists" Or bring very high paying jobs that Germany desperately needs, and allow great students to actually do something with their education, which would in turn enable a poor neighbourhood to thrive with ancilliary businesses, restaurants, taxis etc. etc..
  - usrusr 8y ago
    It's not that simple. For Berlin, counterculture vibe is an economic resource, more important even than being the seat of government. It's what lures companies like Google there in the first place. Google wanted to be in Kreuzberg instead of Mitte, just like they wanted to be in Meatpacking instead of Midtown. Many companies are content settling down in neighboring districts, well within car-less commute range from Kreuzberg, but Google, in an impressive act demonstration of bad judgment, thought that with enough money they could just buy right into the heart of it. Even on a strictly economic level, it makes perfectly sense for the city to not want that to happen, in the same way that Rome would be stupid to allow the construction of hotels on the ancient forum even though they would surely "create jobs". The good thing is that Google eventually understood their error (you can't buy the friendship of people who will despise you for trying) because any attempt to achieve this through regulation would have been a total shitshow for everyone involved. It's basically the same story as the Chelsea Market building, but with gritty Berlin punks instead of cute but toothless Greenwich Village and in an environment where even rich conservatives agree with the left that money cannot overrule everything else. It's really not surprising that it turned out differently.
  - jtolmar 8y ago
    Gentrification doesn't benefit the people who actually live there. The block gets nicer buildings and more services, but land isn't people. People in poor neighborhoods rent, so when the cost of the neighborhood goes up they just lose money until they leave, and take on the costs of moving themselves. This is pure downside for them, of course they'd be against it.
bartman 8y ago
This could have been a big factor. I live in Berlin and have not followed this topic closely, and only heard about this not being a typical Google office days ago when Google changed plans. The talk on the street over the last months was always centered on Google wanting to create a big office and the residents not wanting any big corporations there.
- cyphunk 8y ago
  This could be how the message was advertised by some but most people i met from the protestors understood googles plans were at least recently rather moderated. They all understood google was a symbolic target for a bigger problem.
dao- 8y ago
> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: Very much so. Been to a panel discussion organized by them. The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Doesn't matter whether the pay checks come from Google at the end of the day.
- badpun 8y ago
  > The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Sort of understood, given that Germans are a nation of life-long renters (as opposed to home-owners). Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter.
  - woodpanel 8y ago
    > Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter. Well not entirely. Gentrification is started and driven by new groups of tenants moving into a neighbourhood. Property owners and investors will only jump onto the bandwagon afterwards. With German restrictions on rent-increases, being one of those original gentrificators (OG) you can lock in an incredibly low rent in a place where rents for new leases skyrocket. As long as you stay in your flat, you're shielded from those rent-hikes. Growing up, I've had many friends who lived literally in city mansions (4m++ ceiling height, art deco, 6-10 rooms for a family of three) in a fully gentrified area paying a rent lower than I paid for my no-go-area 25sqm studio. All because their parents kept the lease from their 1970s flatshare (pre-gentrification, no-go-area then). Today even more than 20yrs ago, those OGs often live in an opaque, inaccessible grey housing market: If they want to move (because e.g. the 6 people they share a flat with became 1 spouse and a kid), they first look out for other OGs to do a lease-switch. Which means their rent level stays pre-gentrification forever. If nothing comes across they can still "resell" the lease.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    well you would have thought that after a while Germans should have realised that renting (long term is a mugs game). - Just entrenches the power of the elites.
hknd 8y ago
Yes, this is so sad. I know so many start-up founders in London who spend nearly every day at the campus in London. It's a free workspace with a lot of benefits, like wifi, cheap snacks/drinks and meeting other founders for kx.
- eropple 8y ago
  How many of them lived and worked there before that? How many of them are making the community around them better for this? Look, I work for startups, I'm not remotely out of this myself, but most startups create net-negative externalities on the places around them (I'd say that most create net-negative externalities societally, and I refuse to work for those, but that's a different kettle of fish.) It isn't "sad" that a countercultural and art-focused area doesn't want techbros milquetoasting the community and causing CoL spikes--even if that means they don't want me around, either.
- mrzool 8y ago
  Poor start-up founders! No wifi and cheap snacks for them. Instead, those spaces will be given to a non-profit donation platform and to an organization that supports children and young people in need. This is incredibly sad :(
juloi 8y ago
The distinction between campus vs. incubator is within the current gentrification discussion in Berlin probably not too important. They main issue to tackle for the Berlin government—from my point of view—is to find the right balance of luxury and affordable housing. People making above average salaries in the growing tech scene should/would pay the higher prices for luxury properties, while the art and counter culture scene would not need to be gentrified if there was a higher supply of affordable housing. As a Berliner for the past 5 years, I really believe that most the unique vibe of the city comes from the art and left-oriented community here. A lot of us working in the tech world support it, enjoy it and even adapt to their ways (while keeping quiet about how much more money we earn). I really hope that the government makes an effort on affordable housing to keep the balance that makes the city special.
seanhunter 8y ago
The tech ecosystem in Berlin is pretty diverse. It doesn't need an SV firm to come in to do that or to give access to facilities and other resources.
- DanielleMolloy 8y ago
  By 'diverse' you mean dozens of embarrassing Rocket Internet copycats...? This sort of arrogance is so typical for Germany.
megaman8 8y ago
at the end of the day, what matters is the supply of jobs vs the supply of places to live. And if there's already too many jobs to residential areas, then I think it's quite responsible of them to say no to more jobs. It's better to put those jobs in areas that have enough housing. the bay area was not so smart and look where it got us.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "already too many jobs" this is really never the case.
DanielleMolloy 8y ago
> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: that this wasn't a hub for all of Google's employees, but rather a place that would help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. From what I know about the protest - reading public statements, how the protests began, how they now publicly celebrate their 'victory', and from having seen their early campaign websites - they almost certainly had no idea what a Google Campus is about. At some point certain parts of the campaign learned, but many never left the black & white painting behind for a more nuanced assessment. What they are publicly exhibiting as "creative street art" may be very telling about their capability for nuance: https://fuckoffgoogle.de/2018/04/17/street-art-against-google/ https://fuckoffgoogle.de/2018/04/17/street-art-against-googl... There is lots of criticism in Germany right now about these protests having chased away a startup campus.
mrzool 8y ago
People around here understood what this was about very well. It was not a misunderstanding.
joering2 8y ago
I don’t care what it is! Nothing good ever came out product-wise from Google other than search engine. Let Google search, period! You can argue that we have second most popular operating system thanks to Google but you can’t argue that have not Google someone else would have filled in the void. And now that despicable news came out about Android founder and how Google covered for him, its akward looking at friends devices thinking to yourself: this has been invented by a total creep with a dream of slavery times being back so he can own people. Disgusting! I mean imagine if it came out that Jobs was a big fan of Hitler or enjoyed fantasizing about mass-blanket genocide! Would you still buy Apple products? And then there is that PR spin that it was fun kinky game of two. No it wasnt as she barely knew him! If I email 7 billion individuals with plan to own them and lease them, how many will come back defending me that it was okay because it was “only a kinky game.” I applaud Germans for not being gullable when it comes to Internet. Germany amongst all European Union nations have the most strict rules and regulations protecting citizens first and foremost, not foreign entities that pay squad of taxes within German borders. Even on email protection alone you cannot email someone without double optins. We need similar protection laws in USA and Google needs to stick to search!
lkrubner 8y ago
I think everyone, myself included, who loved Berlin up till (roughly) 2012 is horrified by the sudden increase in rents that has occurred since the tech industry started moving to Berlin. In 2010 I stayed with a friend who was renting a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Neukoln for 550 euros a month. That was common back then. 8 years later, it is impossible to find that kind of rent. The city was much more pleasant before the tech industry showed up.

SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1) I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

aesh2Xa1 8y ago
The article lists that reason (gentrification) explicitly. The only other one given in there is that Google is evil (data collection, tax evasion, etc.). Someone else pointed out that the type of hosted campus would not lead to the same gentrification when the startups don't offer high salaries, but I think the point is still valid. At least, I do not know of another Google campus where this was not the case... I could be wrong. As an aside, I dislike the term "techbro." It's obviously pejorative and I hardly ever see anything kind used to describe men working in the IT/CS sector. Just that and "neckbeard."
pteredactyl 8y ago
The mutual exclusivity is naive at best. To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally, activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one. I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical. But why is tech framed the opposite of art? Why is tech equal to techbro? Yea there are always bad apples. But I wonder what Da Vinci would think about holding art in the opposite category as tech? I'd argue they're more synonymous than opposite. To me, there's creativity. Both art and tech are creative. Applied creativity pertains to both code or a paint canvas. Either way, the best, most valuable work to society is often never been done before. Can anyone name an art piece (or if I'm being generous, an art movement) in the last 15 years that's made the level of impact as Google? Or cryptocurrency? Ultimately, to me, the 'artists' need to up their game. Big time. [1] Protest city hall if you feel gentrified. Especially in SF where it's largely illegal to build housing. Also, regarding gentrification, you don't hear the positive stories of immigrant families whose businesses flourish because of increased capital in an area, or those who feel safer, or even those who cashed out and sold their 50k house for 1.2 million. Again you hear a largely misdirected, dated and one-sided argument.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  I think your comment is extremely patronizing and arrogant ("To me, it shows haters' level of intellect.") and a "let them eat cake" attitude that to me shows a clear lack of understanding of why people have become so anti-tech over the past 2 decades.
  - pteredactyl 8y ago
    If you see the world in black and white then yes, I will question your intellect. If you look at some of the best, most novel tech and do not see 'art' then yes I will question your intellect. I could go on.
  - avip 8y ago
    I think we should stop using these empty terms in discussion. They contribute nothing, it’s just ad hominem.
Xylakant 8y ago
The building was originally renovated by ID Media, one of the largest digital media/web development companies in Berlin at the end of the nineties. It’s been filled with IT companies ever since they went bankrupt and currently has an incubator as one of the renters. It’s never been full of artists for the last 20 years. So while I’m not surprised (and very much not sad) that the plans didn’t work out for a host of reasons I really don’t think that the campus would have led to substantial gentrification in that region. Disclosure: we (still) have our office in the complex.
- cyphunk 8y ago
  The mere mention of google already turned up into most housing and office space sale adverts. The effect on housing costs is real but the amount debatable. Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years and protestors are looking for symbolic wins to make the city more urgently address the problem.
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    > Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years Exactly my point. The rents are on the rise with our without google. I really don't think that the victory is anything but a symbolic win. It does nothing to push the city to solve that issue.
    - cyphunk 8y ago
      Companies paying workers 3 to 10 times the average wage for an area adds real stress. Berlin's problems are that, and also: + A global shift toward freelance and remote work letting people take a risk and move to a new place. + The first German renaissance back toward the east after the wall fell. The older generation in the west still remember Berlin and people from Berlin in a negative light, but their children have quiet a different impression and their parents are alltohappy to buy property for them in under-priced Berlin. Additionally reunification gutted all industry in the east causing a renter exodus to larger east German cities + A global debt surplus and rich people everywhere looking for stable places to stash wealth with Germany's open markets an attractive destination. In some odd way financially conservative Germans think they win with this, not considering how it increases costs of all social services and thereby their tax burden as well. Focusing on overpriced jobs is definitely only one of many places to start. Google just made it very easy that people target them first because their products are so disliked for their lack of care for privacy: post-snowden I'm not sure I know of a single service Google has switched to being e2e encrypted.
malvosenior 8y ago
What makes "artists" better to live around than "techbros"? Having lived in my fair share of neighborhoods inhabited by both, I can say neither is better/worse than the other. It's basically the difference to people living off their parent's money (artists) vs. people living off money they make themselves (tech workers).
heroyang 8y ago
These people are artists? It's not art if it's ugly. These creative types are almost always the same, white failures who think they can talk back to their superiors. I think I might buy up some trendy property just so I can throw these disgusting junky whites on to the street.
tomjen3 8y ago
If you can replace techbros with $MINORITY and the artists with white people, you can see why I have no sympathy for that argument, or the people who put it forth.
- SideburnsOfDoom 8y ago
  And yet the results are the exact opposite - when the tech scene moves in, prices and rents go up. It's clearly not a good analogy if it produces the opposite result.
marcell 8y ago
Since when is a bunch of nerds “techbros”? I really hate this term. If I like programming and computers and databases, am I a techbro? Is this supposed to be a bad thing?
- Barrin92 8y ago
  Nobody dislikes a good-natured nerd. As someone from Germany maybe to give some local perspective, what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city. That's the sort of thing that invokes the image of a "tech bro" and this is what people don't want in Berlin. People don't want the local scene replaced with overpriced chain stores and electric scooters and multinationals dictating city development policy. The CCC has its roots in Germany and we've always had a hacker and nerd friendly culture.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city." What on earth are you talking about? Who are these magical people who build castles? And Berlin is not hugely more 'communal' than anywhere else.
    - StudentStuff 8y ago
      Amazon, Google, Facebook. Look at the castles they've built in Seattle, you aren't getting in unless you are an employee or are escorted by an employee. None of those companies need this level of security, and most other businesses you can literally wander into during office hours, but that is generally not the case with these three.
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        You are not allowed into any corporate office, in any city - unless you work there. Every company definitely has security, even small one's, and this has nothing to do with the FANGs. Try to waltz into the UBS or Deutchebank building and see if you can just wander around. Most banks have considerably more security than the FANGS and ever since 9/11 many NYC buildings have a ton of security. You need to get a visitors badge with a photo they take of you on the spot to simply go to a meeting in some towers in the US. You need 15 minutes just to get in.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists" Or bring very high paying jobs that Germany desperately needs, and allow great students to actually do something with their education, which would in turn enable a poor neighbourhood to thrive with ancilliary businesses, restaurants, taxis etc. etc..
- usrusr 8y ago
  It's not that simple. For Berlin, counterculture vibe is an economic resource, more important even than being the seat of government. It's what lures companies like Google there in the first place. Google wanted to be in Kreuzberg instead of Mitte, just like they wanted to be in Meatpacking instead of Midtown. Many companies are content settling down in neighboring districts, well within car-less commute range from Kreuzberg, but Google, in an impressive act demonstration of bad judgment, thought that with enough money they could just buy right into the heart of it. Even on a strictly economic level, it makes perfectly sense for the city to not want that to happen, in the same way that Rome would be stupid to allow the construction of hotels on the ancient forum even though they would surely "create jobs". The good thing is that Google eventually understood their error (you can't buy the friendship of people who will despise you for trying) because any attempt to achieve this through regulation would have been a total shitshow for everyone involved. It's basically the same story as the Chelsea Market building, but with gritty Berlin punks instead of cute but toothless Greenwich Village and in an environment where even rich conservatives agree with the left that money cannot overrule everything else. It's really not surprising that it turned out differently.
- jtolmar 8y ago
  Gentrification doesn't benefit the people who actually live there. The block gets nicer buildings and more services, but land isn't people. People in poor neighborhoods rent, so when the cost of the neighborhood goes up they just lose money until they leave, and take on the costs of moving themselves. This is pure downside for them, of course they'd be against it.

bartman 8y ago

This could have been a big factor. I live in Berlin and have not followed this topic closely, and only heard about this not being a typical Google office days ago when Google changed plans. The talk on the street over the last months was always centered on Google wanting to create a big office and the residents not wanting any big corporations there.

cyphunk 8y ago
This could be how the message was advertised by some but most people i met from the protestors understood googles plans were at least recently rather moderated. They all understood google was a symbolic target for a bigger problem.

dao- 8y ago

> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: Very much so. Been to a panel discussion organized by them. The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Doesn't matter whether the pay checks come from Google at the end of the day.

badpun 8y ago
> The fear was that the incubator would accelerate gentrification. Sort of understood, given that Germans are a nation of life-long renters (as opposed to home-owners). Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  > Gentrification is generally great for the owner and terrible for the renter. Well not entirely. Gentrification is started and driven by new groups of tenants moving into a neighbourhood. Property owners and investors will only jump onto the bandwagon afterwards. With German restrictions on rent-increases, being one of those original gentrificators (OG) you can lock in an incredibly low rent in a place where rents for new leases skyrocket. As long as you stay in your flat, you're shielded from those rent-hikes. Growing up, I've had many friends who lived literally in city mansions (4m++ ceiling height, art deco, 6-10 rooms for a family of three) in a fully gentrified area paying a rent lower than I paid for my no-go-area 25sqm studio. All because their parents kept the lease from their 1970s flatshare (pre-gentrification, no-go-area then). Today even more than 20yrs ago, those OGs often live in an opaque, inaccessible grey housing market: If they want to move (because e.g. the 6 people they share a flat with became 1 spouse and a kid), they first look out for other OGs to do a lease-switch. Which means their rent level stays pre-gentrification forever. If nothing comes across they can still "resell" the lease.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  well you would have thought that after a while Germans should have realised that renting (long term is a mugs game). - Just entrenches the power of the elites.

hknd 8y ago

Yes, this is so sad. I know so many start-up founders in London who spend nearly every day at the campus in London. It's a free workspace with a lot of benefits, like wifi, cheap snacks/drinks and meeting other founders for kx.

eropple 8y ago
How many of them lived and worked there before that? How many of them are making the community around them better for this? Look, I work for startups, I'm not remotely out of this myself, but most startups create net-negative externalities on the places around them (I'd say that most create net-negative externalities societally, and I refuse to work for those, but that's a different kettle of fish.) It isn't "sad" that a countercultural and art-focused area doesn't want techbros milquetoasting the community and causing CoL spikes--even if that means they don't want me around, either.
mrzool 8y ago
Poor start-up founders! No wifi and cheap snacks for them. Instead, those spaces will be given to a non-profit donation platform and to an organization that supports children and young people in need. This is incredibly sad :(

juloi 8y ago

The distinction between campus vs. incubator is within the current gentrification discussion in Berlin probably not too important. They main issue to tackle for the Berlin government—from my point of view—is to find the right balance of luxury and affordable housing. People making above average salaries in the growing tech scene should/would pay the higher prices for luxury properties, while the art and counter culture scene would not need to be gentrified if there was a higher supply of affordable housing. As a Berliner for the past 5 years, I really believe that most the unique vibe of the city comes from the art and left-oriented community here. A lot of us working in the tech world support it, enjoy it and even adapt to their ways (while keeping quiet about how much more money we earn). I really hope that the government makes an effort on affordable housing to keep the balance that makes the city special.

seanhunter 8y ago

The tech ecosystem in Berlin is pretty diverse. It doesn't need an SV firm to come in to do that or to give access to facilities and other resources.

DanielleMolloy 8y ago
By 'diverse' you mean dozens of embarrassing Rocket Internet copycats...? This sort of arrogance is so typical for Germany.

megaman8 8y ago

at the end of the day, what matters is the supply of jobs vs the supply of places to live. And if there's already too many jobs to residential areas, then I think it's quite responsible of them to say no to more jobs. It's better to put those jobs in areas that have enough housing. the bay area was not so smart and look where it got us.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
"already too many jobs" this is really never the case.

DanielleMolloy 8y ago

> There may still be very valid reasons to protest Google in Berlin, but I wonder if the people objecting understood the distinction: that this wasn't a hub for all of Google's employees, but rather a place that would help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources. From what I know about the protest - reading public statements, how the protests began, how they now publicly celebrate their 'victory', and from having seen their early campaign websites - they almost certainly had no idea what a Google Campus is about. At some point certain parts of the campaign learned, but many never left the black & white painting behind for a more nuanced assessment. What they are publicly exhibiting as "creative street art" may be very telling about their capability for nuance: https://fuckoffgoogle.de/2018/04/17/street-art-against-google/ https://fuckoffgoogle.de/2018/04/17/street-art-against-googl... There is lots of criticism in Germany right now about these protests having chased away a startup campus.

mrzool 8y ago

People around here understood what this was about very well. It was not a misunderstanding.

joering2 8y ago

I don’t care what it is! Nothing good ever came out product-wise from Google other than search engine. Let Google search, period! You can argue that we have second most popular operating system thanks to Google but you can’t argue that have not Google someone else would have filled in the void. And now that despicable news came out about Android founder and how Google covered for him, its akward looking at friends devices thinking to yourself: this has been invented by a total creep with a dream of slavery times being back so he can own people. Disgusting! I mean imagine if it came out that Jobs was a big fan of Hitler or enjoyed fantasizing about mass-blanket genocide! Would you still buy Apple products? And then there is that PR spin that it was fun kinky game of two. No it wasnt as she barely knew him! If I email 7 billion individuals with plan to own them and lease them, how many will come back defending me that it was okay because it was “only a kinky game.” I applaud Germans for not being gullable when it comes to Internet. Germany amongst all European Union nations have the most strict rules and regulations protecting citizens first and foremost, not foreign entities that pay squad of taxes within German borders. Even on email protection alone you cannot email someone without double optins. We need similar protection laws in USA and Google needs to stick to search!

lkrubner 8y ago

I think everyone, myself included, who loved Berlin up till (roughly) 2012 is horrified by the sudden increase in rents that has occurred since the tech industry started moving to Berlin. In 2010 I stayed with a friend who was renting a beautiful 2 bedroom apartment in Neukoln for 550 euros a month. That was common back then. 8 years later, it is impossible to find that kind of rent. The city was much more pleasant before the tech industry showed up.