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I really have little doubt that the Chinese are integrating their spy chips into computer hardware going to the big four or even the pentagon. It's probably how

I really have little doubt that the Chinese are integrating their spy chips into computer hardware going to the big four or even the pentagon. It's probably how they stole the designs to the f-35[you know that plane that costs over a trillion dollars to develop]. It would catastrophic if apple knew or even acknowledges the possibility of the Chinese having a backdoor into their servers and would result in massive shift in policy[+profit]. The NSA has been known to intercept electronics in shipping and putting in their own specialized pcb board replacements with microphones, cameras, etc. and are _very_ hard to detect. Hell the Russian even went back to typewriters for security purposes[0]. It would be foolish to think that the Chinese/Russians aren't doing the same thing to us. [0]:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10173645/Kremlin-returns-to-typewriters-to-avoid-computer-leaks.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/101...

ceejayoz 8y ago
While I'm sure there's all sorts of technological approaches in use, the Snowden incident showed a much easier method of stealing secrets.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Easier != only.
justicezyx 8y ago
> how they stole the designs to the f-35 Any comprehensive report of this?
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35...
- chenster 8y ago
  It seems like it's the user manual got stolen, which is completely different level of secrecy than the F-35 design.
  - wpdev_63 8y ago
    From the article, "he managed to steal 630,000 files from Boeing's system, totalling some 65 gigabytes of data, from 2010 onwards. A report prepared by the hackers reads that "experts inside China have a high opinion" about the data on the C-17, and that they "were the first ever seen in the country."" https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35... He got a bit more than the manual there.
sp332 8y ago
Even if we accept all that, it doesn't make the Bloomberg article right.
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  Well if they actually had 3 high level sources on inside, which they probably did as they are a very reputable news org, then they had every right to post the story. People need to realize that if what they are saying is true, this is huge.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - sp332 8y ago
    Really? I can't think of one single commenter who thinks this wouldn't be a big deal if it were true.
strictnein 8y ago
> "you know that plane that costs over a trillion dollars to develop" That $1+ trillion number is cost through 2070. $406.5 billion for acquisition of the jets $1.1 trillion for operations and maintenance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  I stand corrected but it's still a ridiculous high price to develop a plane and then have the plans simply stolen. What's the difference between the Chinese stealing a half billion dollars and stealing the designs of these plans that cost around that amount? Consequentially, probably not much.
hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
Saying "The Chinese are probably doing something bad" is very different from the very specific accusations that were made; "The Chinese are doing the same thing to us" is not a news story - what was reported by Bloomberg was a news story. My point is that hand wavy "they have to be spying somewhere" is in no way a defense for the Bloomberg story. My reason why I'm very skeptical of the story is that I think it would be possible that SOMEONE would have physical evidence of it (given that it was a hardware hack) that they could show. So far Bloomberg hasn't really shown anything to back up their story.
- jackconnor 8y ago
  "Well it sounds like it could be real, so it's probably true" - I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is an acceptable counter-argument.
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  I don't do chip decapping but from the looks of it[0], it's incredibly hard and time consuming. They would have to do it to every server. It would be easier to suggest that there's no actual guarantees of hardware security these companies can make unless I am missing something. I am not a computer engineer nor do I have I worked in secops at any of these companies. [0]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z4aF-qiziM&t=3266s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z4aF-qiziM&t=3266s
shitloadofbooks 8y ago
US companies are integrating fairly public "spy chips" in the form of Intel's ME and AMD's PSP. These have very little/no benefit for the average consumer.
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  Well that hasn't been confirmed with all the research around it[0]. A spy chip/core doesn't need to be part of intel ime to be in there though. [0]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmHmYxyoxg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmHmYxyoxg
scarcely 8y ago
Why are you posting the exact same comment you posted three days ago word for word? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18259097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18259097 Are you conducting some kind of controlled experiment and using HN commenters as lab rats?
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  I felt that my comment was germane to this discussion so I reposted it. It's worth talking about it.

ceejayoz 8y ago

While I'm sure there's all sorts of technological approaches in use, the Snowden incident showed a much easier method of stealing secrets.

reaperducer 8y ago
Easier != only.

justicezyx 8y ago

> how they stole the designs to the f-35 Any comprehensive report of this?

ceejayoz 8y ago
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35...
chenster 8y ago
It seems like it's the user manual got stolen, which is completely different level of secrecy than the F-35 design.
- wpdev_63 8y ago
  From the article, "he managed to steal 630,000 files from Boeing's system, totalling some 65 gigabytes of data, from 2010 onwards. A report prepared by the hackers reads that "experts inside China have a high opinion" about the data on the C-17, and that they "were the first ever seen in the country."" https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35-secrets-to-china-pleads-guilty https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kz9xgn/man-who-sold-f-35... He got a bit more than the manual there.

sp332 8y ago

Even if we accept all that, it doesn't make the Bloomberg article right.

wpdev_63 8y ago
Well if they actually had 3 high level sources on inside, which they probably did as they are a very reputable news org, then they had every right to post the story. People need to realize that if what they are saying is true, this is huge.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- sp332 8y ago
  Really? I can't think of one single commenter who thinks this wouldn't be a big deal if it were true.

strictnein 8y ago

> "you know that plane that costs over a trillion dollars to develop" That $1+ trillion number is cost through 2070. $406.5 billion for acquisition of the jets $1.1 trillion for operations and maintenance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...

wpdev_63 8y ago
I stand corrected but it's still a ridiculous high price to develop a plane and then have the plans simply stolen. What's the difference between the Chinese stealing a half billion dollars and stealing the designs of these plans that cost around that amount? Consequentially, probably not much.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago

Saying "The Chinese are probably doing something bad" is very different from the very specific accusations that were made; "The Chinese are doing the same thing to us" is not a news story - what was reported by Bloomberg was a news story. My point is that hand wavy "they have to be spying somewhere" is in no way a defense for the Bloomberg story. My reason why I'm very skeptical of the story is that I think it would be possible that SOMEONE would have physical evidence of it (given that it was a hardware hack) that they could show. So far Bloomberg hasn't really shown anything to back up their story.

jackconnor 8y ago
"Well it sounds like it could be real, so it's probably true" - I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is an acceptable counter-argument.
wpdev_63 8y ago
I don't do chip decapping but from the looks of it[0], it's incredibly hard and time consuming. They would have to do it to every server. It would be easier to suggest that there's no actual guarantees of hardware security these companies can make unless I am missing something. I am not a computer engineer nor do I have I worked in secops at any of these companies. [0]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z4aF-qiziM&t=3266s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z4aF-qiziM&t=3266s

shitloadofbooks 8y ago

US companies are integrating fairly public "spy chips" in the form of Intel's ME and AMD's PSP. These have very little/no benefit for the average consumer.

wpdev_63 8y ago
Well that hasn't been confirmed with all the research around it[0]. A spy chip/core doesn't need to be part of intel ime to be in there though. [0]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmHmYxyoxg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmHmYxyoxg

scarcely 8y ago

Why are you posting the exact same comment you posted three days ago word for word? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18259097 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18259097 Are you conducting some kind of controlled experiment and using HN commenters as lab rats?

wpdev_63 8y ago
I felt that my comment was germane to this discussion so I reposted it. It's worth talking about it.