6 ms·

> The problem with school Have you thought of viable solutions for this?

by Demigod33 8y ago

jarfil 8y ago
Socrates already thought of some... and yet here we are, with people being born as ignorant and uneducated as ever.
- some_account 8y ago
  Not to mention you can't trust "education" to be true unless you can verify yourself that it is true. So much education is just propaganda.
  - vezycash 8y ago
    Schooling is a subset of education.
eaenki 8y ago
Giving kids the choice to seamlessly switch classroom should be enough for most of them. Anyway, classrooms as they are right now, are in themselves a rather flawed concept. And we’re already at a deep level here. At an higher level, parents should have vouchers equal to their tax spending that it’s directed toward to schooo to spend at the school of choice. See Steve jobs’ interview on education for more on that.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  As a public school teacher, the voucher program would be absolutely awful. Good schools would get better and poor ones would get worse, as the only parents who could necessarily afford to switch schools are already those who are better off. This would just create a huge inequality between the school systems.
  - chongli 8y ago
    The current system is putting up barriers to the growth of students by forcing them to stay in mediocre schools. Students from the richest families don't have this problem because their parents have the ability to move to other cities or even other countries in search of the best opportunity. The inequality is already there, the current system only serves to hide it and maintain it. Why not try letting go and opening up the door for more students to move around? It would give us a better idea of where the problems are so we can address them.
    - wastedhours 8y ago
      > The inequality is already there, the current system only serves to hide it and maintain it. Why not try letting go and opening up the door for more students to move around? It would give us a better idea of where the problems are so we can address them. Genuine question: why do you think the issue of educational inequality is hidden? The problem areas are fully known and there are dedicated charities working to address it all around the world. Is the argument we need to make the situation so worse to bring it into the public conscious more?
    - jonnybgood 8y ago
      The best schools are at full capacity with the middle class and up families that you’ve mentioned. No one is going to move their student to a mediocre school. Now what? Students are still in mediocre schools and can’t go anywhere else. Vouchers solved nothing. The current system is not hiding or maintaining the problem. The problem is pretty blatant and well known.
      - MichaelBurge 8y ago
        Why don't people start more private schools if their capacity is maxed? By assumption, there is more demand than supply, and the vouchers would increase the demand further.
        ljf 8y ago
- slics 8y ago
  I came from a small country in Europe and schools followed a more strict policy. We were not allowed to change classrooms from 1-12 grade, the teachers switched classrooms. Because of that process, we created a bond with the classmates and kind of became like a family and protected one another. There was bullying, but it was minimal because the non-supervision time window was small during our 20 min lunch break. I promise, if the western schools follow the same policy all that pushing and shoving of kids during class transition will not happen. Just my 2 cents.
  - wastedhours 8y ago
    Or you punish the few for the actions of the majority. I was in a terrible class in school, and for 3 years we had all our lessons together. The only way the teachers knew how to attempt to control it was through collective responsibility, punishing the entire class - something that only affects the people who behave well enough to even indulge in punishment [0]. Relying on peer bonding falls down when you're unlucky to be placed with those who're unengaged in the system (mostly not their own fault, society has let them down, doesn't make the impact any less shitty for all involved though). Until you make education more engaging (usually through quality teachers), and invest in supporting those who've been let down to the extent they've given up on progressing in life by age 12, without being destructive to others, it's going to be a clusterfuck all round. [0] those who don't care enough to not set fire to the classroom are unlikely to care about turning up for detention or getting a bad referral...
  - icebraining 8y ago
    the non-supervision time window was small during our 20 min lunch break So you didn't have breaks between classes? You were stuck in the classroom all day?
    - slics 8y ago
      There was a 5-10 min window for teachers to walk from class to class. So yeah we were there the entire time, 8AM-3PM. Same thing exists in the lower grades in US, K-5. We don’t see those kids complaining either.
avip 8y ago
Most/all of these issues are immediately solvable if your family can afford private education.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  yes and no. usually this fixes the quality of the education (although there do exist some that are weak academically), but private schools can still be very toxic places. not even all the rich white kids fit in.
  - avip 8y ago
    OP referred to immobility as a main concern. Private education solves that. So do many public education systems (ex. the Netherlands) that give parents more freedom in choosing institutions suitable for their kids.
sametmax 8y ago
Well, it's a catch 22. If I were to go back to school right now, I would live it vastly differently because of what I know about others, myself, and the values of things. My parent moved around a lot, and I went to 11 different education facilities. The quality of the experience is immensely different depending of the school and yes, money helps. I did not live the same experience in poor areas and rich ones. But, assuming you get only one school, and it sucks, you can only learn those by either: - growing up - being taught about it The first option is moot since you are still a kid in school. The second one assumes your parents are able to do that, but if they were, you wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Actually, even paying for a top school is only half of a good solution. Toxic environment can take different shapes, and are everywhere in life. Also, you may be a profile that doesn't fit easily in most places. Being born awkward is a thing :) Better learn to deal with it than working around the problem. So no, I have no solution, even if I acknowledge changing schools help. However, I do know what my current self would tell my previous self: - conformity is a balance. Full conformity will kill your personality. But total rejection will make your life much harder. It's unfair, especially since a lot of what people conform to can be things you think very badly about. However, it's important to pick your battle: forcing yourself to do a few conventional stuff makes the ride much smoother for a reasonable price. Again, it's unfair to have to do that. But think of it as gravity: you can try to oppose it as much as you want, but it's not going anywhere. Better learn to deal with it. Language and appearance are low hanging fruits: they don't affect you as deeply as activities. - it's important to learn to defend yourself. This includes several steps. Accepting that people will do things you can't imagine doing yourself and can't believe they do, that destroy and hurt. That doesn't make them bad persons, but it is here, and you have to accept it exists. Then realize you don't have any reason to put up with it. Then learn to fight it of in a progressive manner: bad behavior is not a 1/0 switch, it's a curve and you need to answer early, and proportionally to what's happening. It's exhausting at first, but it prevents the "silent for long, then explode or collapse", and you will be surprised about the positive consequences of doing this right. Setting and respecting boundaries (even artificial ones) are an important social mechanism. This doesn't help with people in charge behaving badly however. Kids life suck for that: you are basically at their mercy unless you are ready to pay an ungodly price. - pay the price. All those things have a price. Again, it's unfair. But people will get mad at you. You will make enemies. You will be punished. Hurt. And other unexpected costs. Assessing the cost and making sure it's worth it is a matter of experience. But if you don't chose the price to pay, you just end up paying one anyway, and one that is assigned to you. - the people in charge are not here to help you. People have their own agenda and ego. Some are great, but most will protect themself and the institution. Again it does not make them bad persons, but play the game understanding that when you'll have a problem, they probably won't be the solution despite what everyone says, and that applying a solution may make them act against you. Stash that in the "price to pay" column, and make a choice. - stop being a jerk. When you are in an environment where you don't fit, you often react in a jerky way. Some become aggressive, some arrogant, some needy, some victimize them-self. It's a natural reaction. But it makes things worse. You don't have to be nice unless you feel you'd like to. Don't force yourself (it's a horrible idea). But don't be an ass unless you need to: this you should force yourself to avoid. It's incredible the number of situations that completely change depending of the way you react to it. A victim posture attract bullies. Arrogance breed rejection. Etc. A good starting rule is: be positive first, then next time, behave like they behaved the last time with you. - it's ok if people get angry. Your parent may be angry, but they are not always right and don't live what you do. If you don't think you are screwing up (and deep inside you know when you do), just be ok with the fact they are angry. They have their own perspective. Same for teachers. Same for friends. Also accept you will fail and makes plenty of mistakes. It's ok to get angry at people as well. It should not, however, be a permanent state. That would indicate something deeply wrong. But, allow yourself to antagonize people and vice-versa: this gives you space to act. Adult are not always right, they don't have the same objectives, constraints and they don't have the whole picture. And other kids, well, they are like you. They are just doing their best to live this thing. - you can't win all the fights. There may be hundreds of things you want to change. And they may all be worth it. But you are limited in time and space. Physics is a b*. So pick a few, invest yourself to them, but let the others go. You can't defend the weak, be popular, make sure people recycle, call out the mistake of teachers, get the girl, motivate your friends to quit drugs, win the championship, promote animal rights and have straight A+. Unfair ? Well yes. Guess what, you'll also end up dying. - don't blindly listen to advises (including this comment). I've been given terrible advises by people that I trusted and that cared about me. "Just be yourself". "Don't listen to them". "It doesn't matter what they think". "Fighting is bad". "Tell your teacher about it". Now I don't know what will be your conclusion, and I don't pretend I know the one-and-only-truth. But it's important to try things, reject what failed, and stick to what works. Test an advice, see the result. Be honest: what happened ? Does that make your life better now ? And later ? Is the cost worth it ? Deep insides me I knew those things but didn't apply them because it seemed dark. The funny thing is, applying them made life easier, and happier for me, and people around me. It's a weird thing. But basically, reality is not perfect, and when you start embracing the imperfect side of it instead of mourning how it could be, it becomes very fun !
sridca 8y ago
Bullying, vanity, peer pressure, conformity, etc. are not specific to schools. Any viable solution for this then has to be equally viable for the rest of the world. What's noteworthy here is the fact that almost no one seems interested in finding a solution to this (aside from fruitlessly trying to change others or 'the system').
- sametmax 8y ago
  No but it's much more present in the young social groups, and the closed ecosystem of a school coupled with the limited autonomy the system gives you at this stage of life makes it especially challenging.

> The problem with school Have you thought of viable solutions for this?

jarfil 8y ago

Socrates already thought of some... and yet here we are, with people being born as ignorant and uneducated as ever.

some_account 8y ago
Not to mention you can't trust "education" to be true unless you can verify yourself that it is true. So much education is just propaganda.
- vezycash 8y ago
  Schooling is a subset of education.

eaenki 8y ago

Giving kids the choice to seamlessly switch classroom should be enough for most of them. Anyway, classrooms as they are right now, are in themselves a rather flawed concept. And we’re already at a deep level here. At an higher level, parents should have vouchers equal to their tax spending that it’s directed toward to schooo to spend at the school of choice. See Steve jobs’ interview on education for more on that.

dorchadas 8y ago
As a public school teacher, the voucher program would be absolutely awful. Good schools would get better and poor ones would get worse, as the only parents who could necessarily afford to switch schools are already those who are better off. This would just create a huge inequality between the school systems.
- chongli 8y ago
  The current system is putting up barriers to the growth of students by forcing them to stay in mediocre schools. Students from the richest families don't have this problem because their parents have the ability to move to other cities or even other countries in search of the best opportunity. The inequality is already there, the current system only serves to hide it and maintain it. Why not try letting go and opening up the door for more students to move around? It would give us a better idea of where the problems are so we can address them.
  - wastedhours 8y ago
    > The inequality is already there, the current system only serves to hide it and maintain it. Why not try letting go and opening up the door for more students to move around? It would give us a better idea of where the problems are so we can address them. Genuine question: why do you think the issue of educational inequality is hidden? The problem areas are fully known and there are dedicated charities working to address it all around the world. Is the argument we need to make the situation so worse to bring it into the public conscious more?
  - jonnybgood 8y ago
    The best schools are at full capacity with the middle class and up families that you’ve mentioned. No one is going to move their student to a mediocre school. Now what? Students are still in mediocre schools and can’t go anywhere else. Vouchers solved nothing. The current system is not hiding or maintaining the problem. The problem is pretty blatant and well known.
    - MichaelBurge 8y ago
      Why don't people start more private schools if their capacity is maxed? By assumption, there is more demand than supply, and the vouchers would increase the demand further.
      - ljf 8y ago
slics 8y ago
I came from a small country in Europe and schools followed a more strict policy. We were not allowed to change classrooms from 1-12 grade, the teachers switched classrooms. Because of that process, we created a bond with the classmates and kind of became like a family and protected one another. There was bullying, but it was minimal because the non-supervision time window was small during our 20 min lunch break. I promise, if the western schools follow the same policy all that pushing and shoving of kids during class transition will not happen. Just my 2 cents.
- wastedhours 8y ago
  Or you punish the few for the actions of the majority. I was in a terrible class in school, and for 3 years we had all our lessons together. The only way the teachers knew how to attempt to control it was through collective responsibility, punishing the entire class - something that only affects the people who behave well enough to even indulge in punishment [0]. Relying on peer bonding falls down when you're unlucky to be placed with those who're unengaged in the system (mostly not their own fault, society has let them down, doesn't make the impact any less shitty for all involved though). Until you make education more engaging (usually through quality teachers), and invest in supporting those who've been let down to the extent they've given up on progressing in life by age 12, without being destructive to others, it's going to be a clusterfuck all round. [0] those who don't care enough to not set fire to the classroom are unlikely to care about turning up for detention or getting a bad referral...
- icebraining 8y ago
  the non-supervision time window was small during our 20 min lunch break So you didn't have breaks between classes? You were stuck in the classroom all day?
  - slics 8y ago
    There was a 5-10 min window for teachers to walk from class to class. So yeah we were there the entire time, 8AM-3PM. Same thing exists in the lower grades in US, K-5. We don’t see those kids complaining either.

avip 8y ago

Most/all of these issues are immediately solvable if your family can afford private education.

leetcrew 8y ago
yes and no. usually this fixes the quality of the education (although there do exist some that are weak academically), but private schools can still be very toxic places. not even all the rich white kids fit in.
- avip 8y ago
  OP referred to immobility as a main concern. Private education solves that. So do many public education systems (ex. the Netherlands) that give parents more freedom in choosing institutions suitable for their kids.

sametmax 8y ago

Well, it's a catch 22. If I were to go back to school right now, I would live it vastly differently because of what I know about others, myself, and the values of things. My parent moved around a lot, and I went to 11 different education facilities. The quality of the experience is immensely different depending of the school and yes, money helps. I did not live the same experience in poor areas and rich ones. But, assuming you get only one school, and it sucks, you can only learn those by either: - growing up - being taught about it The first option is moot since you are still a kid in school. The second one assumes your parents are able to do that, but if they were, you wouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Actually, even paying for a top school is only half of a good solution. Toxic environment can take different shapes, and are everywhere in life. Also, you may be a profile that doesn't fit easily in most places. Being born awkward is a thing :) Better learn to deal with it than working around the problem. So no, I have no solution, even if I acknowledge changing schools help. However, I do know what my current self would tell my previous self: - conformity is a balance. Full conformity will kill your personality. But total rejection will make your life much harder. It's unfair, especially since a lot of what people conform to can be things you think very badly about. However, it's important to pick your battle: forcing yourself to do a few conventional stuff makes the ride much smoother for a reasonable price. Again, it's unfair to have to do that. But think of it as gravity: you can try to oppose it as much as you want, but it's not going anywhere. Better learn to deal with it. Language and appearance are low hanging fruits: they don't affect you as deeply as activities. - it's important to learn to defend yourself. This includes several steps. Accepting that people will do things you can't imagine doing yourself and can't believe they do, that destroy and hurt. That doesn't make them bad persons, but it is here, and you have to accept it exists. Then realize you don't have any reason to put up with it. Then learn to fight it of in a progressive manner: bad behavior is not a 1/0 switch, it's a curve and you need to answer early, and proportionally to what's happening. It's exhausting at first, but it prevents the "silent for long, then explode or collapse", and you will be surprised about the positive consequences of doing this right. Setting and respecting boundaries (even artificial ones) are an important social mechanism. This doesn't help with people in charge behaving badly however. Kids life suck for that: you are basically at their mercy unless you are ready to pay an ungodly price. - pay the price. All those things have a price. Again, it's unfair. But people will get mad at you. You will make enemies. You will be punished. Hurt. And other unexpected costs. Assessing the cost and making sure it's worth it is a matter of experience. But if you don't chose the price to pay, you just end up paying one anyway, and one that is assigned to you. - the people in charge are not here to help you. People have their own agenda and ego. Some are great, but most will protect themself and the institution. Again it does not make them bad persons, but play the game understanding that when you'll have a problem, they probably won't be the solution despite what everyone says, and that applying a solution may make them act against you. Stash that in the "price to pay" column, and make a choice. - stop being a jerk. When you are in an environment where you don't fit, you often react in a jerky way. Some become aggressive, some arrogant, some needy, some victimize them-self. It's a natural reaction. But it makes things worse. You don't have to be nice unless you feel you'd like to. Don't force yourself (it's a horrible idea). But don't be an ass unless you need to: this you should force yourself to avoid. It's incredible the number of situations that completely change depending of the way you react to it. A victim posture attract bullies. Arrogance breed rejection. Etc. A good starting rule is: be positive first, then next time, behave like they behaved the last time with you. - it's ok if people get angry. Your parent may be angry, but they are not always right and don't live what you do. If you don't think you are screwing up (and deep inside you know when you do), just be ok with the fact they are angry. They have their own perspective. Same for teachers. Same for friends. Also accept you will fail and makes plenty of mistakes. It's ok to get angry at people as well. It should not, however, be a permanent state. That would indicate something deeply wrong. But, allow yourself to antagonize people and vice-versa: this gives you space to act. Adult are not always right, they don't have the same objectives, constraints and they don't have the whole picture. And other kids, well, they are like you. They are just doing their best to live this thing. - you can't win all the fights. There may be hundreds of things you want to change. And they may all be worth it. But you are limited in time and space. Physics is a b*. So pick a few, invest yourself to them, but let the others go. You can't defend the weak, be popular, make sure people recycle, call out the mistake of teachers, get the girl, motivate your friends to quit drugs, win the championship, promote animal rights and have straight A+. Unfair ? Well yes. Guess what, you'll also end up dying. - don't blindly listen to advises (including this comment). I've been given terrible advises by people that I trusted and that cared about me. "Just be yourself". "Don't listen to them". "It doesn't matter what they think". "Fighting is bad". "Tell your teacher about it". Now I don't know what will be your conclusion, and I don't pretend I know the one-and-only-truth. But it's important to try things, reject what failed, and stick to what works. Test an advice, see the result. Be honest: what happened ? Does that make your life better now ? And later ? Is the cost worth it ? Deep insides me I knew those things but didn't apply them because it seemed dark. The funny thing is, applying them made life easier, and happier for me, and people around me. It's a weird thing. But basically, reality is not perfect, and when you start embracing the imperfect side of it instead of mourning how it could be, it becomes very fun !

sridca 8y ago

Bullying, vanity, peer pressure, conformity, etc. are not specific to schools. Any viable solution for this then has to be equally viable for the rest of the world. What's noteworthy here is the fact that almost no one seems interested in finding a solution to this (aside from fruitlessly trying to change others or 'the system').

sametmax 8y ago
No but it's much more present in the young social groups, and the closed ecosystem of a school coupled with the limited autonomy the system gives you at this stage of life makes it especially challenging.