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You are aware we are giving away open source software that will control your car, right? It's online today! And it's on par with the best systems money can buy,

You are aware we are giving away open source software that will control your car, right? It's online today! And it's on par with the best systems money can buy, Tesla Autopilot and GM Super Cruise. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot https://github.com/commaai/openpilot No ability to deliver?

jaredklewis 8y ago
Not disputing your claim, but how did you determine the comma Ai system was on par with that of autopilot and super cruise? In general, are there any standardized tests for self driving cars, like car safety ratings but for the driving part? Basically, is there even a way to measure how good a driving system is?
- commaai 8y ago
  Not really. It's mostly subjective, but a good metric is time between user action needed. We did 2 hours of press demos on highways without a single one. (usually it's about an hour) In addition to us, we have a community of users on slack with thousands of miles of experience with each system. I think most would generally agree with the quality assessment. You'll also find a bunch of YouTube videos comparing them.
  - mynewtb 8y ago
    A good metric would be collision avoidance in a multitude of realistic tests, simulating all kinds of dynamic obstacles and vehicle error modes.
  - magic-chicken 8y ago
    So you test the system with human drivers for a few miles, and if none of them dies then it's secure ? You actually rely on the subjectivity of uninformed users to assess the reliabilty of a safety-critical system ? >> Not really. It's mostly subjective. No. The quality of a safety-critical system is not subjective. >> I think most would generally agree with the quality assessment. You are not qualified to make that claim, and neither are your users.
    - nojvek 8y ago
      Self driving systems is in its very early days and commaai is one of the open ones i.e you can take the software and verify under the hood. commaai isn’t also lying that it’s a glorified cruise control. Unlike crash safety, crash and burn, topple etc, there are no open tests or third party certifications that can verify that car model X is subjectively this safe and passes this scenarios. The big cos are notoriously secretive and throwing a lot of marketing money to create hype. I’m just glad that certain states have allowed such cars to be tested on the streets. We have to start somewhere.
agumonkey 8y ago
Tesla and Uber did seriously disappoint. It's even below that but still. I'm dubious about the capabilities of comma.ai system and calling it on par with Tesla after dissing it is a bit disingenuous. I still consider geohot too egotistical in his approach, and that it will not bear fruits. That big commercial companies are pulling bad tricks is one thing but that doesn't mean one lone motivated (and talented) wolf can reach the goal. Try to poach some waymo guys or some robotics to team up.
- kgraves 8y ago
  comma.ai poached an engineer from Tesla[0] I think they are very capable. Maybe their tech is not ready now, but who knows in 2-5 years where they will be. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/18/11454858/george-hotz-self-driving-car-tesla-employee-poach https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/18/11454858/george-hotz-self...
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I meant waymo because they have a less commercial approach compared to Tesla (which might taint this engineer view [or not]) I believe the only way out of the security pit is to double down on rigorous physics and not rapid ML
    - xedeon 8y ago
      Waymo is the pinnacle of commercialized FSD. Have you seen their ads with actors? Tesla does ZERO marketing.
      - agumonkey 8y ago
        Waymo is taking their sweet time, Tesla is aggressively talking about autopilot. Far from Zero.
        xedeon 8y ago
        Send me a link to a Tesla Autopilot video or graphic brochure that is produced by the Tesla marketing team. I'll wait.. Meanwhile there are a few of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HrN12WG-2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HrN12WG-2Q
dchichkov 8y ago
It is an impressive hack. But you are not building something that is useful. Build a small component that follows safety standards - this will be useful.
- commaai 8y ago
  Ask our users if they feel similarly about it not being useful. https://slack.comma.ai https://slack.comma.ai
  - dchichkov 8y ago
    Yes, I understand that. And my perspective is different from your users. It is that of someone who is seeing (and attempting to help) big automotive companies. Companies in the shadow of Waymo, that had recently reached $135B valuation. It is also that of someone, who had been hacking code for medical equipment at 13, some 25 years back. Do as you wish. edit: correction. out of your project we are probably having more hackers that understand at least some aspect of the problem - you still might be doing something very useful.
    - commaai 8y ago
      Waymo's valuation is based on hype. They have no revenue. We aren't trying to help big automotive companies, they are our competition. We are trying to disrupt them.
    - xedeon 8y ago
      Help automotive companies? They have been sitting idle for decades and would rather spend their resources on flashy marketing, rather than innovate. Car companies, even luxury brands like MB, BMW, and Audi are akin to cell phone companies running Symbian, Windows Mobile, Palm OS, and Symbian before the iPhone came along. Now we have innovators like Tesla and open source DIY stuff from comma.ai which can churn out great tech in a very short amount of time, without the need for getting a new year model vehicle.
maym86 8y ago
Software that can't pass automotive safety standards. > Hotz has been teasing a $1,000 after-market kit called Comma One that would let customers transform their dumb cars into smart, self-driving ones. But after a sternly worded letter from the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration last year, Hotz abandoned those plans http://www.reuters.com/article/us-selfdriving-safety-idUSKCN12S1ON http://www.reuters.com/article/us-selfdriving-safety-idUSKCN... Sounds like you have a nice demo in a controlled known environment. It's a far way off the promise made previously about building a self driving car, a claim which is now being retracted. Best of luck turning it into a product. Watch out for those edge cases.

jaredklewis 8y ago

Not disputing your claim, but how did you determine the comma Ai system was on par with that of autopilot and super cruise? In general, are there any standardized tests for self driving cars, like car safety ratings but for the driving part? Basically, is there even a way to measure how good a driving system is?

commaai 8y ago
Not really. It's mostly subjective, but a good metric is time between user action needed. We did 2 hours of press demos on highways without a single one. (usually it's about an hour) In addition to us, we have a community of users on slack with thousands of miles of experience with each system. I think most would generally agree with the quality assessment. You'll also find a bunch of YouTube videos comparing them.
- mynewtb 8y ago
  A good metric would be collision avoidance in a multitude of realistic tests, simulating all kinds of dynamic obstacles and vehicle error modes.
- magic-chicken 8y ago
  So you test the system with human drivers for a few miles, and if none of them dies then it's secure ? You actually rely on the subjectivity of uninformed users to assess the reliabilty of a safety-critical system ? >> Not really. It's mostly subjective. No. The quality of a safety-critical system is not subjective. >> I think most would generally agree with the quality assessment. You are not qualified to make that claim, and neither are your users.
  - nojvek 8y ago
    Self driving systems is in its very early days and commaai is one of the open ones i.e you can take the software and verify under the hood. commaai isn’t also lying that it’s a glorified cruise control. Unlike crash safety, crash and burn, topple etc, there are no open tests or third party certifications that can verify that car model X is subjectively this safe and passes this scenarios. The big cos are notoriously secretive and throwing a lot of marketing money to create hype. I’m just glad that certain states have allowed such cars to be tested on the streets. We have to start somewhere.

agumonkey 8y ago

Tesla and Uber did seriously disappoint. It's even below that but still. I'm dubious about the capabilities of comma.ai system and calling it on par with Tesla after dissing it is a bit disingenuous. I still consider geohot too egotistical in his approach, and that it will not bear fruits. That big commercial companies are pulling bad tricks is one thing but that doesn't mean one lone motivated (and talented) wolf can reach the goal. Try to poach some waymo guys or some robotics to team up.

kgraves 8y ago
comma.ai poached an engineer from Tesla[0] I think they are very capable. Maybe their tech is not ready now, but who knows in 2-5 years where they will be. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/18/11454858/george-hotz-self-driving-car-tesla-employee-poach https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/18/11454858/george-hotz-self...
- agumonkey 8y ago
  I meant waymo because they have a less commercial approach compared to Tesla (which might taint this engineer view [or not]) I believe the only way out of the security pit is to double down on rigorous physics and not rapid ML
  - xedeon 8y ago
    Waymo is the pinnacle of commercialized FSD. Have you seen their ads with actors? Tesla does ZERO marketing.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      Waymo is taking their sweet time, Tesla is aggressively talking about autopilot. Far from Zero.
      - xedeon 8y ago
        Send me a link to a Tesla Autopilot video or graphic brochure that is produced by the Tesla marketing team. I'll wait.. Meanwhile there are a few of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HrN12WG-2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HrN12WG-2Q

dchichkov 8y ago

It is an impressive hack. But you are not building something that is useful. Build a small component that follows safety standards - this will be useful.

commaai 8y ago
Ask our users if they feel similarly about it not being useful. https://slack.comma.ai https://slack.comma.ai
- dchichkov 8y ago
  Yes, I understand that. And my perspective is different from your users. It is that of someone who is seeing (and attempting to help) big automotive companies. Companies in the shadow of Waymo, that had recently reached $135B valuation. It is also that of someone, who had been hacking code for medical equipment at 13, some 25 years back. Do as you wish. edit: correction. out of your project we are probably having more hackers that understand at least some aspect of the problem - you still might be doing something very useful.
  - commaai 8y ago
    Waymo's valuation is based on hype. They have no revenue. We aren't trying to help big automotive companies, they are our competition. We are trying to disrupt them.
  - xedeon 8y ago
    Help automotive companies? They have been sitting idle for decades and would rather spend their resources on flashy marketing, rather than innovate. Car companies, even luxury brands like MB, BMW, and Audi are akin to cell phone companies running Symbian, Windows Mobile, Palm OS, and Symbian before the iPhone came along. Now we have innovators like Tesla and open source DIY stuff from comma.ai which can churn out great tech in a very short amount of time, without the need for getting a new year model vehicle.

maym86 8y ago

Software that can't pass automotive safety standards. > Hotz has been teasing a $1,000 after-market kit called Comma One that would let customers transform their dumb cars into smart, self-driving ones. But after a sternly worded letter from the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration last year, Hotz abandoned those plans http://www.reuters.com/article/us-selfdriving-safety-idUSKCN12S1ON http://www.reuters.com/article/us-selfdriving-safety-idUSKCN... Sounds like you have a nice demo in a controlled known environment. It's a far way off the promise made previously about building a self driving car, a claim which is now being retracted. Best of luck turning it into a product. Watch out for those edge cases.