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Self-Control Matters Far More Than Raw Intelligence
- wccrawford 16y agoI think the article makes a lot of conclusions that aren't based on facts, just assumptions.
- devonrt 16y agoIt's really, really hard to take an article seriously when it takes an "impulsive" five year old and has him committing statutory rape as an adult. Kind of an unnecessary example, no?
- tomjen3 16y agoNot really - it is a real world action with real consequences. He could have gotten her pregnant too, but that wouldn't have been as good an example, since that would require the women to take risks too.
- jordan0day 16y agoActually your example seems like a better one. Most men would read his example about rape and say (truthfully) "I would never do that!" Neglecting to use a condom in the heat of the moment? I imagine the line becomes grayer. It's not longer this abhorrent thing where the consequences are binary (did or did not rape), but instead more of a risk/reward thing where judging the consequences requires more fuzzy logic.
- devonrt 16y agoThat really is a much better example. The first example implies some sort of correlation between impulsiveness or lack of self control and a willingness to perform criminal behavior.
- electromagnetic 16y agoI have friends who fell into the gray area. Forgetting a condom can be easy in the heat of the moment, especially if there was a long 'wait' before hand. However, my friends had good self control... until we got one excessively drunk and sent her home. She ended up at her boyfriends who'd been out at a party himself. 9 months later they had a kid, literally from a 1 time mistake. I've always had strong self-control. Even when I'm excessively drunk (and I tolerate alcohol well) I am in control. I've never behaved far from the norm when intoxicated, I've had the piece of mind to ensure my wife takes her birth control pill when I've been acting like the ball in a game of pong whilst going down a corridor. Self-control is certainly a strong factor in the gray areas. I would bet money that most rapists don't have a problem with self-control, I would say the ability to wait until an opportune time shows a high degree of self-control; a self-control issue would be an old man on a train squeezing a school girls ass. I would say rapists have an impulse-control disorder, they're willing to gamble a minor short-term gain for a huge long-term loss. Someone with self-control issue tends to gamble a small short-term gain with an normal long-term loss. Having children isn't a life-ending consequence of having sex. In fact, it's down right average. Going to jail is a life-ending consequence for the majority of people. A 15 year old having unprotected sex is more an impulse control disorder than a 25 year old. A 25 year old having unprotected sex and having a child is normal, if not expected in the majority of circumstances.
- nandemo 16y agoInteresting. Are you saying that "statutory rape" is generally considered abhorrent in the US? I'm not from US, and in my country the roughly equivalent (but different) crime is called "seduction". It's not nearly as bad as "rape", either legally or socially. A rapist might get lynched in prison, while nobody besides a 17yo girl's parents would care about a "seducer" nowadays. Moral issues aside, unprotected sex with an adult would be much riskier than protected sex with a minor. Would most American young men really say that they would never have consensual sex with a minor? Even if the guy is 18 and the girl is 17? My understanding is that most guys wouldn't do it in situations like a one-night-stand, when the perceived risky of being caught/charged is higher. But if the girl is their girlfriend I believe most guys would do it.
- tomjen3 16y agoIt would not have been a better example, because it is at least equally the womans fault (arguably more, since she has more options for birth control than he does) - statutory rape is not.
- TamDenholm 16y agoI consider myself to have a hell of a lot of self control, sometimes to a fault. There have been times in my life that I feel less self control would have helped me. For instance, ive been in a few one way fights in my life, I've never hit anyone back. I remember the adrenalin rushing through my body and the fight or flight response gearing up, but my mind overcomes that and I usually end up talking myself out of it or someone else interjects. But because I control the fight or flight I end up getting the shakes after the incident because I didn't fight back nor run away, since shaking is the physiological response to burn off the adrenalin. Personally, I feel I'd have done a lot better in those situations if I'd acted on impulse and actually fought back. Hell even running away could've served me better aswell.
- hvs 16y agoMaybe, maybe not. While I can't deny the visceral satisfaction of responding physically, you also sometimes have to deal with the legal consequences of those actions. Short of defending my or a loved one's life or property, I personally find very little reason to respond to someone else's physical threats. What I'm saying is that I think you probably did the right thing.
- logicalmind 16y agoWhat you experienced is completely normal in violent situations. If you want to read a very good book on reactions and consequences of violent situations you should read this: http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training/dp/1594391181 http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martia... Even if you've never been in a violent encounter, this book will help you understand how you will react. Keep in mind, you don't choose when you become part of a violent situation, violence chooses you.
- dhimes 16y agoYou would probably have gotten the shakes even if you had hit back. It's quite common, as is evacuating the bladder, etc., after high-stress encounters, even for people who can anticipate having to have those encounters (police, etc.).
- rfugger 16y ago
- losethos 16y agoluck matters more than skill in who's successful. penicilin, facebook, etc.
- rysmit 16y agoMetaconginiton or as the author calls it, "thinking about thinking" sounds like intelligence to me. Self-control is mentally controlling yourself. It takes an active, thinking, controlled mind to put off what is self-indulgence now for one's own greater good. This may be subjective but I find that most intelligent people are self-controlled by definition.
- dhimes 16y agoMetaconginiton or as the author calls it, "thinking about thinking" sounds like intelligence to me It's usually used to refer to something more akin to self-awareness than raw horsepower. Noticing that you didn't understand a paragraph that you just read is something that some people have to learn later in life than others, for example. It may have to do with intelligence, but also probably motivation and cognitive skills. Edit: fixed typo I may have -> It may have
- dan00 16y ago"The reason they chose to hack instead of watch movies goes to the heart of what really separates people with self-control from people without it." I hate stuff like this. When people say that their being is the only right thing.
- ryanwaggoner 16y agoI think you're missing the context. He's referencing his friend who says he wants to accomplish X, but does Y instead. It's not that Y < X; it's that the guy truly does want to do X but just can't help doing Y instead.
- dan00 16y agoHe uses his friends problem exemplary, but by saying 'they', he generalizes it.
- tyng 16y agoThe article is a bit too one-sided while not taking in other factors that play in life. Still, I agree that Self-Control is absolutely important when it comes down to pursuing your dreams. The benefit (or destruction if you don't self-control) comes at a average-over-time basis
- deno 16y agoIs there something actually based on fact and data that anyone can recommend about the subject of self-control (and it's impact on being successful)?
- sp332 16y agoTED talk video (fun, aimed at a general audience) http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/joachim_de_posada_says_don_t_eat_the_marshmallow_yet.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/joachim_de_posada_says_don... Jonah Lehrer writeup for the New Yorker (6 pages) http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_lehrer http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_... The actual research (direct link to PDF) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%20Lab%20Webpage/PDFs/Metcalfe%20Mischel%201999.pdf http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%20Lab%20W...
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- naner 16y agoThose three are all the same piece of research.
- sp332 16y agoYes, sorry if that wasn't clear.
- deno 16y agoThose are all based on the marshmallow experiment. Is there anything beyond that?
- sp332 16y agoWell, it's like 30 years of research and half of Walter Mischel's entire career!
- 16y ago
- parbo 16y agoWhat's the deal with all the porn references? Seems like the author has some issues.
- aik 16y agoPerhaps he should have used more objective references. I believe the author does not find much worth in porn. Your subjective opinion is clearly different. How is having "issues" related with his viewpoint?
- parbo 16y agoI meant that the numerous references to porn detracts from the article, and instead makes you think about what the author thinks of porn. I didn't mean "haha, the author is a recovering porn addict".
- NumberFiveAlive 16y ago'I’m a driven person and I surround myself with other driven people. Generally, when I land on an exciting new idea, I can’t wait to jump on it'. I read this as 'Self-control is great because I have great self-control.' I'm a big believer in the thesis of this article (to an extent, anyway: I'll take someone with high intelligence and low self-control over an extreme example of someone with low intelligence but high self-control), but he completely turned me off in the third paragraph. And then again when he likened a fifth grader wanting a treat right now with an adult committing statutory rape.
- Tichy 16y agoIsn't "can't wait to jump on an exciting new idea" the opposite of self control?
- Tichy 16y agoSomehow I tend to lean towards a softer interpretation towards people: so I would assume there might be other factors at play, for example with the guy who watches Netflix instead of writing his apps. Perhaps he subconsciously doesn't believe in his success? In general, I think the only way to cure an addiction is to replace it with something better. That is why often alcoholics and drug addicts seem to recover by becoming ultra religious ("better" being subjective, but it fills the void). Instead of looking down on people without self-control, why not try to help them find something better or motivate them? Of course with a lot of self-control maybe the app guy would just sit down and write the apps. But can self-control then not also backfire? At other times HN is flooded with articles about failing early enough or being prepared to change course. Self control would prevent that and therefore make you less adaptive (at least one possibility). As for the kids with Marshmallows experiment, yeah, I've heard about it, the guy also wrote a bestseller called "Emotional Intelligence" (notice he is good at marketing). But how many kids did he test? Has it been repeated? And maybe it was other factors - perhaps the kids not taking the Marshmallows were more intelligent and had already learned that Marshmallows are bad for you. Perhaps kids from families with higher socioeconomic status feed less candy to their kids, so the kids craving for candy less were already from better backgrounds. (Not saying that is the explanation, just saying there could be lots of factors at play besides self-control. Personally, I never liked Marshmallows, not even as a kid...).
- knowledgesale 16y agoThe question here is not whether we should look down on people with certain traits but to find out what makes a person effective. It is not about judgment, it is about studying the interaction between human traits and the society. As for the critique of the experiment, proper screening and appropriate statistical analysis allow to rule out these factors. Just read the research paper for yourself http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%2520Lab%2520Webpage/PDFs/Metcalfe%2520Mischel%25201999.pdf&pli=1 http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%2520Lab%2...
- Tichy 16y agoLink doesn't work, unfortunately. Hope to get around to reading it eventually :-/ I actually assume it was a good study, but still, what is self-control? It seems a rather fuzzy thing, if measured by marshmallow craving. It might be too simplistic to reduce things to it.
- j_baker 16y agoThere will probably be a lot of people who will disagree with me on this, but here I go anyway: I think self control and discipline are overrated. Some of my best work has come out of me being distracted and unfocused. I generally find that it's better to indulge my lack of focus in a controlled manner than it is to try fighting it.
- Quiark 16y agoWhat kind of work was it? Something highly creative? EDIT: those who upvoted as "me too" can answer too.
- knowledgesale 16y agoI think that he isn't going to answer. He has got distracted.
- j_baker 16y agoI suppose you could say that. I guess maybe the two things are related. :-)
- aik 16y agoI agree, creativity and freedom to do what you feel/want are very connected. However, if the project is large enough, self-control and discipline is required to turn that project into something great, especially for entrepreneurs who wear many hats.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- dnautics 16y ago"I know a guy who constantly talks about wanting to start his own business. He’d like to build it around his very own iPhone app. He’s a talented Flash designer who resolved several years ago to teach himself how to develop apps. About 6 months ago, he bought himself a book on how to do that. He hasn’t cracked it open yet. Instead, he spends his weeknights watching Netflix." Yeah but the guy who does build the empire around a flash app has to have the impulsiveness to actually do that, too. It's equally possible to be gridlocked by fear of failure masquerading as "impulse control".
- daniel-cussen 16y ago"One thing I’ve noticed is how rarely you see very ambitious people who are overweight. It’s probably because of metacognition." Caesar also feared thin men, because they could overcome the smaller temptations that small-time power brought with it, focussing instead on going big-time.
- jlcgull 16y agoGood to know. Now I can sleep easy knowing that the Teletubbies are not gonna to take over the world by morning.
- jlgbecom 16y agoI would add that genius is more defined by an extreme tenacity than intelligence.
- deadbeat 16y agoSelf-control is pretty strongly correlated with high intelligence.
- aik 16y agoAll depends on your definition of high intelligence. I know some very intelligent (rapid cognition, knowledgeable, very capable of thought...) people, who completely lack any form of self-control and are essentially bums.
- chc 16y agoThe article takes as given that people who hack rather than watch Netflix do so because of their superior self-control — does anybody else doubt that? I've had times in my life when I've been really prolific and times when it would take a Herculean effort to get anything worthwhile done. When I'm prolific, it's not because I'm exercising self-control to stop myself from watching Netflix — I'd just rather work on Thing X than watch a movie. When I find myself watching Netflix instead of putting in time on something I've been wanting to do, it's because at that moment the movie is more appealing than the work. It's the same force pushing in different directions. I'm not saying you can get by with no self-control (there are always some less pleasant things you need to do), but I think taking this article at face value might lead people down the wrong path.
- aik 16y agoI can relate with the article in that I've noticed in myself that if I ever go a week where I watch more movies/TV than usual, I VERY quickly notice myself feeling like it's OK to watch that amount, or more, in the future. Actions of that comfort turn very quickly into habits, and that's where the real danger lies - falling into comfort. It's really why so many people work boring jobs. I bet you a good amount of them have dreams, but are too comfortable and lack the "metacognition" (or vision, self-control, foresight, execution skills) to take action.
- DTrejo 16y agoWhen I find myself watching Netflix instead of putting in time on something I've been wanting to do, it's because at that moment the movie is more appealing than the work. When this happens to me I challenge myself first to figure out why the work is less appealing, and then once I've figured that out I attempt to remove the block. This strategy has been somewhat successful, but sometimes the barriers are too big and annoying and horrible to push through :| In those cases, on goes the movie and I simply hope that time and help from others will resolve the issue.
- kennedywm 16y agoFor some people, doing something productive isn't an act of self-control--it's just what you prefer doing. I can't sit and enjoy a movie when I'm excited about a project I'm working on; I'll just sit there thinking about how much I want to get back to work.
- c00p3r 16y agoYet another guy just discovered a Marshmallow study? ^_^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification
- sandykory 16y agoThe article makes a false distinction--'raw intelligence' is not necessary different that 'self-control.' Like emotional intelligence, 'self-control' is a necessary but not sufficient part of any useful meaning of 'intelligence.'
- hungh3 16y agoNo amount of efforts or will can ever be more enduring then our love of the work. Then, even if we are willing to use the wills, instead of love, to control our behaviour, life is miserable.