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It's interesting that the car was exceeding the speed limit of 35 mph. I would assume the car would stay at or below the speed limit. Who gets the speeding tick

It's interesting that the car was exceeding the speed limit of 35 mph. I would assume the car would stay at or below the speed limit. Who gets the speeding ticket in this case? Does 5 mph affect the reaction time such that it could have noticed and taken evasive action?

kamaal 9y ago
>>Who gets the speeding ticket in this case? Whoever owns the algorithm. Or at-least in whoever's name the license/permission was issued. If its an organization, the top management signing off on this has to take the blame.
- gambiting 9y ago
  Legally, the person behind the wheel was still the driver. They are responsible for both the speeding and for killing a pedestrian. At this stage it's no different than using cruise control - you are still responsible for what happens.
  - random4369 9y ago
    I really hope you're wrong. If the legal system doesn't distinguish between cruise control and SAE level 3 autonomy, the legal system needs to get its shit together.
    - badtechstuff 9y ago
      I attended an Intelligent Transport Systems (ITS) summit last year in Australia. The theme very much centred around Autonomous Cars and the legality, insurance/liabilities and enhancements. There are several states is USA that are more progressive than others (CA namely). But with many working groups in and around the legal side - it hopefully will be a thing of the past. In Australia, they are mandating by some year soon (don't have it on hand) that to achieve a Safety Rating of 5 star, some level of automation needs to exist. Such as lane departure or ABS will become as standard as aircon.
      - cyphar 9y ago
        Assuming ABS means "Anti-Lock Braking System" in this context, isn't that already standard? I can't think of a (recent) car with an ANCAP rating of 5 that doesn't have ABS. I'm not sure I would even classify ABS as automation in the same way that something like lane departure is automation. ABS has been around (in some form) since the 1950s, and works by just adjusting braking based on the relative turning rates of each wheel. Compared to lane departure, ABS is more like a tire pressure sensor.
        zild3d 9y ago
        Generally ABS does mean anti-lock braking system, but my guess is that they meant "Automatic Braking System"?
    - Gaelan 9y ago
      IMO as long as there is a human in the driver’s seat who is expected to intervene, they should bear the consequences of failing to do so.
      - random4369 9y ago
        No, that's bullshit. It's physically impossible for a human to intervene on the timescales involved in motor accidents. Autonomy that requires an ever-vigilant driver to be ready to intervene at any second is literally worse than no autonomy at all; because if the driver isn't actively driving most of the time, their attention is guaranteed to stray.
        gambiting 9y ago
        I agree with you - but that's literally the stage we're at. What we have right now is like "advanced" cruise control - the person behind the wheel is still legally defined as the driver and bears responsibility for what happens. The law "allows" these systems on the road, but there is no framework out there which would shift the responsibility to anyone else but the person behind the wheel. >> It's physically impossible for a human to intervene on the timescales involved in motor accidents. That remains true even without any automatic driving tech - you are responsible even for accidents which happen too quickly for anyone to intervene. Obviously if you have some evidence(dashcam) showing that you couldn't avoid the accident you should be found not guilty, but the person going to court will be you - not the maker of your car's cruise control/radar system/whatever.
        sundvor 9y ago
        Currently have two cars; one Mazda '14 3 with AEB, Lane Departure alert, radar cruise, BLIS, rear cross alert - and the other an '11 Outback with none of that (but DSC and ABS, as well as AWD). The assists are certainly helping more than anything, so I feel that the Mazda is much safer to drive in heavy traffic than the older Outback. The cruise has autonomy over controlling the speed only, and applying brakes, but it is still autonomy. Of course since my hands never leave the wheel it may not fit with what you have in mind. Having said that, Mazda (or Bosch?) really nailed their radar, having never failed to pick up motorbike riders even though the manual warns us to not expect it to work. I feel more confident in a system where the ambition is smaller, yet execution more solid. Fwiw I also tested the AEB against cardboard boxes driving through them at 30km/h not moving accelerator at all, and came away very impressed by the system. It intervened so last second I felt for sure it wasn't going to work, but it did - first time was a very slight impact, next two were complete stops with small margins. This stuff is guaranteed to save lives and prevent costly crashes (I generally refuse to use the word "accident") on a grander scale.
    - sandov 8y ago
      It creates an incentive to buy autonomous cars that are well programmed.
  - sverhagen 9y ago
    Does this responsibility stay with the driver, despite this clearly being an Uber operation? Aside from the victim, did self-driving tech just get its first, uhm, "marter"?
    - gambiting 9y ago
      By law(and please correct me if I'm wrong), the driver of the vehicle is responsible for everything that happens with the vehicle. Why would it matter if the vehicle is owned by UPS, Fedex, PizzaHut or Uber? Is a truck driver not responsible for an accident just because they drive for a larger corporation? Let me put it this way - my Mercedes has an emergency stop feature when it detects pedestrians in front of the car. If I'm on cruise control and the car hits someone, could I possibly blame it on Mercedes? Of course not. I'm still the driver behind the wheel and those systems are meant to help - not replace my attention. What we have now in these semi-autonomous vehicles is nothing more than a glorified cruise control - and I don't think the law treats it any differently(at least yet.). Now, if Uber(or anyone else) builds cars with no driver at all - sure, we can start talking about shifting the responsibility to the corporation. But for now, the driver is behind the wheel for a reason.
      - mitchdoogle 9y ago
        From the article: The San Francisco Chronicle late Monday reported that Tempe Police Chief Sylvia Moir said that from viewing videos taken from the vehicle “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway." (bit.ly/2IADRUF) Moir told the Chronicle, “I suspect preliminarily it appears that the Uber would likely not be at fault in this accident,” but she did not rule out that charges could be filed against the operator in the Uber vehicle, the paper reported.
        SirZimzim 9y ago
        I would be interested in hearing more about how he qualified that statement. Are shadows a known limitation with some or only Ubers systems?
russdill 9y ago
The measured speed was 38mph. That is within 10% of the posted speed.
- sverhagen 9y ago
  Isn't that still too fast? Maybe not worth ticketing for, but still relevant after an incident like this?
- icc97 9y ago
  Driving rules in the UK have changed, since at least a decade ago, so that there is no 10% margin. Speedometers are required by law to read on or under and they are more reliable now. So if you're going 36mph then you'd be fined. On top of the speedometer it has the GPS speed to compare as well, I can't see how there is any excuse for being over the limit. The quoted stats from UK advertising were that at 40mph 80% of pedestrians will die from the crash, at 30mph 20% will die. Had the car been doing just under the limt e.g. 33mph then there's a much better chance that the woman would have survived.
  - russdill 9y ago
    That's not how posted speed limits work in Tempe though. Traffic flows an average of 5-10mph above the posted limit.
  - nextweek2 9y ago
    I cannot find a reference to backup your claim of the 10% + 2mph margin having been axed. In fact I remembered the Chief Constable calling for the end of it recently (implying it was still being used): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5332443/Police-chief-demands-end-soft-treatment-speeding.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5332443/Police-chief... [30 January 2018] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/31/motorists-should-penalised-going-just-1mph-speed-limit-britains/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/31/motorists-should... Can you explain why you think this rule changed a decade ago?
    - icc97 9y ago

kamaal 9y ago

>>Who gets the speeding ticket in this case? Whoever owns the algorithm. Or at-least in whoever's name the license/permission was issued. If its an organization, the top management signing off on this has to take the blame.

gambiting 9y ago
Legally, the person behind the wheel was still the driver. They are responsible for both the speeding and for killing a pedestrian. At this stage it's no different than using cruise control - you are still responsible for what happens.
- random4369 9y ago
  I really hope you're wrong. If the legal system doesn't distinguish between cruise control and SAE level 3 autonomy, the legal system needs to get its shit together.
  - badtechstuff 9y ago
    I attended an Intelligent Transport Systems (ITS) summit last year in Australia. The theme very much centred around Autonomous Cars and the legality, insurance/liabilities and enhancements. There are several states is USA that are more progressive than others (CA namely). But with many working groups in and around the legal side - it hopefully will be a thing of the past. In Australia, they are mandating by some year soon (don't have it on hand) that to achieve a Safety Rating of 5 star, some level of automation needs to exist. Such as lane departure or ABS will become as standard as aircon.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      Assuming ABS means "Anti-Lock Braking System" in this context, isn't that already standard? I can't think of a (recent) car with an ANCAP rating of 5 that doesn't have ABS. I'm not sure I would even classify ABS as automation in the same way that something like lane departure is automation. ABS has been around (in some form) since the 1950s, and works by just adjusting braking based on the relative turning rates of each wheel. Compared to lane departure, ABS is more like a tire pressure sensor.
      - zild3d 9y ago
        Generally ABS does mean anti-lock braking system, but my guess is that they meant "Automatic Braking System"?
  - Gaelan 9y ago
    IMO as long as there is a human in the driver’s seat who is expected to intervene, they should bear the consequences of failing to do so.
    - random4369 9y ago
      No, that's bullshit. It's physically impossible for a human to intervene on the timescales involved in motor accidents. Autonomy that requires an ever-vigilant driver to be ready to intervene at any second is literally worse than no autonomy at all; because if the driver isn't actively driving most of the time, their attention is guaranteed to stray.
      - gambiting 9y ago
        I agree with you - but that's literally the stage we're at. What we have right now is like "advanced" cruise control - the person behind the wheel is still legally defined as the driver and bears responsibility for what happens. The law "allows" these systems on the road, but there is no framework out there which would shift the responsibility to anyone else but the person behind the wheel. >> It's physically impossible for a human to intervene on the timescales involved in motor accidents. That remains true even without any automatic driving tech - you are responsible even for accidents which happen too quickly for anyone to intervene. Obviously if you have some evidence(dashcam) showing that you couldn't avoid the accident you should be found not guilty, but the person going to court will be you - not the maker of your car's cruise control/radar system/whatever.
      - sundvor 9y ago
        Currently have two cars; one Mazda '14 3 with AEB, Lane Departure alert, radar cruise, BLIS, rear cross alert - and the other an '11 Outback with none of that (but DSC and ABS, as well as AWD). The assists are certainly helping more than anything, so I feel that the Mazda is much safer to drive in heavy traffic than the older Outback. The cruise has autonomy over controlling the speed only, and applying brakes, but it is still autonomy. Of course since my hands never leave the wheel it may not fit with what you have in mind. Having said that, Mazda (or Bosch?) really nailed their radar, having never failed to pick up motorbike riders even though the manual warns us to not expect it to work. I feel more confident in a system where the ambition is smaller, yet execution more solid. Fwiw I also tested the AEB against cardboard boxes driving through them at 30km/h not moving accelerator at all, and came away very impressed by the system. It intervened so last second I felt for sure it wasn't going to work, but it did - first time was a very slight impact, next two were complete stops with small margins. This stuff is guaranteed to save lives and prevent costly crashes (I generally refuse to use the word "accident") on a grander scale.
  - sandov 8y ago
    It creates an incentive to buy autonomous cars that are well programmed.
- sverhagen 9y ago
  Does this responsibility stay with the driver, despite this clearly being an Uber operation? Aside from the victim, did self-driving tech just get its first, uhm, "marter"?
  - gambiting 9y ago
    By law(and please correct me if I'm wrong), the driver of the vehicle is responsible for everything that happens with the vehicle. Why would it matter if the vehicle is owned by UPS, Fedex, PizzaHut or Uber? Is a truck driver not responsible for an accident just because they drive for a larger corporation? Let me put it this way - my Mercedes has an emergency stop feature when it detects pedestrians in front of the car. If I'm on cruise control and the car hits someone, could I possibly blame it on Mercedes? Of course not. I'm still the driver behind the wheel and those systems are meant to help - not replace my attention. What we have now in these semi-autonomous vehicles is nothing more than a glorified cruise control - and I don't think the law treats it any differently(at least yet.). Now, if Uber(or anyone else) builds cars with no driver at all - sure, we can start talking about shifting the responsibility to the corporation. But for now, the driver is behind the wheel for a reason.
    - mitchdoogle 9y ago
      From the article: The San Francisco Chronicle late Monday reported that Tempe Police Chief Sylvia Moir said that from viewing videos taken from the vehicle “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway." (bit.ly/2IADRUF) Moir told the Chronicle, “I suspect preliminarily it appears that the Uber would likely not be at fault in this accident,” but she did not rule out that charges could be filed against the operator in the Uber vehicle, the paper reported.
      - SirZimzim 9y ago
        I would be interested in hearing more about how he qualified that statement. Are shadows a known limitation with some or only Ubers systems?

russdill 9y ago

The measured speed was 38mph. That is within 10% of the posted speed.

sverhagen 9y ago
Isn't that still too fast? Maybe not worth ticketing for, but still relevant after an incident like this?
icc97 9y ago
Driving rules in the UK have changed, since at least a decade ago, so that there is no 10% margin. Speedometers are required by law to read on or under and they are more reliable now. So if you're going 36mph then you'd be fined. On top of the speedometer it has the GPS speed to compare as well, I can't see how there is any excuse for being over the limit. The quoted stats from UK advertising were that at 40mph 80% of pedestrians will die from the crash, at 30mph 20% will die. Had the car been doing just under the limt e.g. 33mph then there's a much better chance that the woman would have survived.
- russdill 9y ago
  That's not how posted speed limits work in Tempe though. Traffic flows an average of 5-10mph above the posted limit.
- nextweek2 9y ago
  I cannot find a reference to backup your claim of the 10% + 2mph margin having been axed. In fact I remembered the Chief Constable calling for the end of it recently (implying it was still being used): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5332443/Police-chief-demands-end-soft-treatment-speeding.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5332443/Police-chief... [30 January 2018] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/31/motorists-should-penalised-going-just-1mph-speed-limit-britains/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/31/motorists-should... Can you explain why you think this rule changed a decade ago?
  - icc97 9y ago