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> This regulation is not limited to companies based in the EU—it applies to any service anywhere in the world that can be used by citizens of the EU. That's fu

by ysv2 9y ago

> This regulation is not limited to companies based in the EU—it applies to any service anywhere in the world that can be used by citizens of the EU. That's fundamentally incorrect. As a non-EU citizen, I reject the notion that a foreign government has the right to impose their own laws on me, be it the EU or China or anyone else. If the EU thinks it's a problem that I'm offering a service to EU citizens that doesn't comply with laws I have no vote on, frankly they can sod off.

michael_storm 9y ago
It being fundamentally incorrect and you not liking it are two very different things.
- ysv2 9y ago
  Yet it is fundamentally incorrect. I'm not an EU citizen, so I have zero reason to care about their laws. I will simply ignore them, and the EU has no recourse, other than possibly mandating that their ISPs block me or something. Which I also do not care about.
  - hvidgaard 9y ago
    If you want to do business with EU citizens, you have to follow EU law. Before the internet, you had to open a shop here, or send your goods over the border. The only thing that has changed is the fact that you provide a virtual service over the internet.
    - ysv2 9y ago
      No, if I want to have a physical presence in the EU I have to follow EU law. But if I'm residing entirely in another country, and EU citizens want to do business with me over the internet, I could care less what EU law says. And no amount of whining on this thread will change the fact that the EU has no leverage over me.
      - hvidgaard 9y ago
        So, you do not care one iota about laws, or security of PII and other sensitive information, unless there can be sanctions against you? Regardless, businesses have been dropped from their payment provider for less, so there is certainly leverage.
      - pavelludiq 9y ago
        If I break US law over the internet against a US company/person, even though I do no business in the US, have never been there, and don't plan to be there, guess how long before I'm dragged making license plates with words like "liberty" or "freedom" on them in an American rape gulag?
      - xxs 9y ago
        >I could care less what EU law says You need a way to sell to EU (if you wish to do business there). Digital services (say from US) do require EU VAT registration. If you don't have that and your country has tax agreement with the EU (or some countries from EU), there is a risk to be prosecuted. It won't happen if you get like 1000 customers in each country of the EU (as the latter has no global tax organization like IRS). Keep in mind also that if you have too much unexplained income your own tax authorities can investigate the case, incl. anti money laundering. Bottomline is: it's rather hard to sell services (lest goods), in cases where you non-compliant with the laws. Internet is not a magic wand.
zuppy 9y ago
Yes, it's your right to block the EU users. But, if you want their money (and that's up to you to decide), you have to obey to their law, nothing new here.
- TomasEkeli 9y ago
  It's not their money, it's if you store or process personal data about individuals in the European Economic Area (slightly larger than the EU). If you're running a Chinese site aimed at Chinese you're good. If you're running an Indonesian site aimed at Germans you need to honour the GDPR.
  - x0x0 9y ago
    Probably... not really? Maybe? For starters, if you don't take payment and aren't in the EU, EU enforcement power is going to be extraordinarily limited. And even if you do require payment, if you don't have a physical nexus in the EU, it's unclear what exactly the EU can do? I think the GDPR was basically aimed at some of the scummier adtech practices and businesses like Facebook, and for those, it will be very enforceable.
    - doikor 9y ago
      > And even if you do require payment, if you don't have a physical nexus in the EU, it's unclear what exactly the EU can do? You need an EU VAT ID to accepts payments from EU citizens. So they will revoke that and then you can't accept payments from EU.
      - tatersolid 9y ago
        > You need an EU VAT ID to accepts payments from EU citizens. This was mentioned before: No, you don’t. Millions of business around the world accept transactions from EU citizens every day without collecting any VAT or having any relationship with the EU.
  - yetanother1980 9y ago
marenkay 9y ago
You are aware that this does not make sense, since to do business with people from other countries you already have to comply with their laws in terms of taxes and accounting anyway. Selling to EU customers as US business already requires you to have a VAT ID in EU, so what does this change for you? In the end the main provision is to only require and store customer data which is effectively needed for providing the services and goods you offer. If you are doing business responsibly, this should not affect you at large as it mainly formalises these processes and requires you to actually write down and document what data you need for what processing steps. If you can not do that, your business is already flawed and not because GDPR does not work for you.
- openplatypus 9y ago
  > Selling to EU customers as US business already requires you to have a VAT ID in EU That's not quite right. If you are digital service provider based in the US, no, you don't need EU VAT ID.
darrenf 9y ago
To me this reads with the focus in reverse. The EU's aim is not specifically to regulate or punish non-EU service providers - rather, that's (one effect of) the tool they are using to protect the rights of its citizens which is the real focus here. Since service providers the world over have been unwilling to voluntarily protect those rights, what alternative approach could they take?

by ysv2 9y ago

michael_storm 9y ago

It being fundamentally incorrect and you not liking it are two very different things.

ysv2 9y ago
Yet it is fundamentally incorrect. I'm not an EU citizen, so I have zero reason to care about their laws. I will simply ignore them, and the EU has no recourse, other than possibly mandating that their ISPs block me or something. Which I also do not care about.
- hvidgaard 9y ago
  If you want to do business with EU citizens, you have to follow EU law. Before the internet, you had to open a shop here, or send your goods over the border. The only thing that has changed is the fact that you provide a virtual service over the internet.
  - ysv2 9y ago
    No, if I want to have a physical presence in the EU I have to follow EU law. But if I'm residing entirely in another country, and EU citizens want to do business with me over the internet, I could care less what EU law says. And no amount of whining on this thread will change the fact that the EU has no leverage over me.
    - hvidgaard 9y ago
      So, you do not care one iota about laws, or security of PII and other sensitive information, unless there can be sanctions against you? Regardless, businesses have been dropped from their payment provider for less, so there is certainly leverage.
    - pavelludiq 9y ago
      If I break US law over the internet against a US company/person, even though I do no business in the US, have never been there, and don't plan to be there, guess how long before I'm dragged making license plates with words like "liberty" or "freedom" on them in an American rape gulag?
    - xxs 9y ago
      >I could care less what EU law says You need a way to sell to EU (if you wish to do business there). Digital services (say from US) do require EU VAT registration. If you don't have that and your country has tax agreement with the EU (or some countries from EU), there is a risk to be prosecuted. It won't happen if you get like 1000 customers in each country of the EU (as the latter has no global tax organization like IRS). Keep in mind also that if you have too much unexplained income your own tax authorities can investigate the case, incl. anti money laundering. Bottomline is: it's rather hard to sell services (lest goods), in cases where you non-compliant with the laws. Internet is not a magic wand.

zuppy 9y ago

Yes, it's your right to block the EU users. But, if you want their money (and that's up to you to decide), you have to obey to their law, nothing new here.

TomasEkeli 9y ago
It's not their money, it's if you store or process personal data about individuals in the European Economic Area (slightly larger than the EU). If you're running a Chinese site aimed at Chinese you're good. If you're running an Indonesian site aimed at Germans you need to honour the GDPR.
- x0x0 9y ago
  Probably... not really? Maybe? For starters, if you don't take payment and aren't in the EU, EU enforcement power is going to be extraordinarily limited. And even if you do require payment, if you don't have a physical nexus in the EU, it's unclear what exactly the EU can do? I think the GDPR was basically aimed at some of the scummier adtech practices and businesses like Facebook, and for those, it will be very enforceable.
  - doikor 9y ago
    > And even if you do require payment, if you don't have a physical nexus in the EU, it's unclear what exactly the EU can do? You need an EU VAT ID to accepts payments from EU citizens. So they will revoke that and then you can't accept payments from EU.
    - tatersolid 9y ago
      > You need an EU VAT ID to accepts payments from EU citizens. This was mentioned before: No, you don’t. Millions of business around the world accept transactions from EU citizens every day without collecting any VAT or having any relationship with the EU.
- yetanother1980 9y ago

marenkay 9y ago

You are aware that this does not make sense, since to do business with people from other countries you already have to comply with their laws in terms of taxes and accounting anyway. Selling to EU customers as US business already requires you to have a VAT ID in EU, so what does this change for you? In the end the main provision is to only require and store customer data which is effectively needed for providing the services and goods you offer. If you are doing business responsibly, this should not affect you at large as it mainly formalises these processes and requires you to actually write down and document what data you need for what processing steps. If you can not do that, your business is already flawed and not because GDPR does not work for you.

openplatypus 9y ago
> Selling to EU customers as US business already requires you to have a VAT ID in EU That's not quite right. If you are digital service provider based in the US, no, you don't need EU VAT ID.

darrenf 9y ago

To me this reads with the focus in reverse. The EU's aim is not specifically to regulate or punish non-EU service providers - rather, that's (one effect of) the tool they are using to protect the rights of its citizens which is the real focus here. Since service providers the world over have been unwilling to voluntarily protect those rights, what alternative approach could they take?