8 ms·
Ask HN: What are good tech jobs that don't require being good at interviewing?
- sotojuan 9y agoWrong question - the right question is "which companies don't have the typical whiteboard interview". Mine didn't, and it's a regular software engineer job. Here's a list of some - never used it but was on here a while back: https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards
- ccdev 9y agoWrong question - the right question is "which companies don't have the typical whiteboard interview". Wrong assumption - the majority of my on-site interviews don't even use whiteboards. They involve discussing real world problems and work experiences with me. I still do not get offers from them.
- karmakaze 9y ago> They involve discussing real world problems and work experiences with me. This seems like a good interview process. If you're qualified for the position, then what part of the interview is working against you?
- Joof 9y agoNot the parent, but I'm someone with quite a lot of social anxiety. I fall apart when I have to give presentations (working on this skill) or I'm in a high-pressure social setting. Everyone does to some degree, but for myself and others like me, it's an order of magnitude greater. I can certainly work with a team and I can program at least as well as most of my peers, but interviews are difficult for me.
- KGIII 9y agoWould you like some unsolicited advice? You could go find your nearest open-mic night and sing/play for the audience. You can read poetry or sing karaoke. It's probably going to suck the first time you do this. However, keep doing it. Eventually, you will get more comfortable and confident. It takes lots of practice. I did a lot of stage performances as a musician. I used to vomit before going on stage. Eventually, I got used to it. Eventually, I was able to interact with the crowd. Eventually, I got comfortable. This confidence helped with many other areas of my life. It did take work and pushing through the discomfort and fear. It was not easy. This may work for you.
- sbmassey 9y agoI found going to acting school a help. I doubt I could have mustered up the courage to do stuff in front of an audience back then, but being given a script to perform in front of a small group of other acting students was much easier.
- KGIII 9y agoA public speaking course may also help. Things like that get you used to working through discomfort while maintaining a level of concentration.
- martijndwars 9y agoTo be honest, I agree with the parent that the question is wrong. No company wants employees that are bad at interviewing. No company wants employees that are bad at anything, in fact. Maybe it helps to contact the company that rejected you and ask them why they rejected you. This would allow you to narrow down your weaknesses and improve these skills. I've never tried this myself, so I'm not sure how common such a request is, but it seems like a sensible thing to do.
- bjelkeman-again 9y agoI don't think you will get very straight answers from most.
- Clubber 9y agoOr even a response for that matter.
- dabockster 9y agoOr, if you do get a response, it's usually a "can't sue me" copout like "not enough experience" or "wrong cultural fit".
- headcanon 9y agoDoesn't cost anything to try though. We actually do attempt to give straightforward answers to candidates that are not a good fit, although we are a smaller company that doesn't have the concerns that a large corporation has
- vram22 9y agoOr any answers. At least for the US, I've read before here on HN that it may be due to the company's fear of being litigated against for some sort of discrimination.
- brians 9y agoCan you find a nearby hiring manager—someone who hires regularly—to give you an interview and tell you why you wouldn’t be hired? I’d be happy to do this for acquaintances near me (Cambridge, Mass.)
- kclay 9y agoHow would you even go by looking people to do this? Especially someone familiar with the tech field for example? "hiring manager technology" doesn't return the best results in trying to find someone.
- ineptech 9y agoGonna have to talk to friends and coworkers. I've done this (mock interviews for people who are bad at interviewing) for friends and even friend-of-a-friends, but I wouldn't want to be on a searchable directory of such people.
- kclay 9y agoYeah that seems to be the common theme, "Ask friends and coworkers" I guess I need to do a bit more networking at meetups at such. Its been word of mouth from previous clients for all these years so I never bother to reach out to build a network.
- fillskills 9y agoWe don't have a typical white boarding interview. Based on your experience, we might send you a take home coding challenge.
- 35bge57dtjku 9y agoHow long would it take?
- StavrosK 9y agoI kind of hate that as well, given that I maintain multiple popular libraries, have a ton of code on Github (of actual web apps that you can use right now), etc. What can a take-home coding challenge tell you that you won't learn from actually looking at my production code?
- moron4hire 9y agoBut, but, looking at your code requires effort on their part.
- amorphid 9y agoAs a former tech recruiter, I can say there's a good chance interviewing team won't bother reviewing your coding exercise. It's easy to ask you to complete an exercise, but reviewing the exercise, let alone giving meaningful feedback, requires work. Teams aren't always willing/interested/able to put in the work review N take home projects. Here's an example: - apply to job - recruiter does phone screen - you're asked you to complete exercise before an interviewer has reviewed your profile/resume/application - you put a bunch of work into doing exercise well and return it - your exercise is not reviewed at all because: the job has been filled, the job has been closed, an interviewer didn't like your resume/CV/application, the recruiter misplaces your exercise, the team is too busy to review any exercises, etc.
- fillskills 9y agoI should explain what our coding exercise is. Its a decent size project on bitbucket that we ask developers to install. Yes, just install. No real coding required. Usually takes between 30 minutes to 8 hours. What we are looking for are specific things: a) Can you read and follow the installation instructions AND are you familiar with Git and NPM? b) If you face some installation issue, are you willing to spend the effort to solve it? c) Can you read code? Because sometimes a library wont work for you. So you might have to change the version or find a workaround. d) For more mid to senior engineers, we expect them to ask detailed questions on our choices of architecture, libraries and suggest alternatives and reasoning behind their choices. So its not really a coding exercise where we ask someone to fix a bug or write code and then evaluate their coding style. Its a little different in that we are looking for problem solving skills in a startup environment. I don't think this approach will work for a large company where every developer has a specific role. But it works well for us.
- whipoodle 9y agoEveryone is proud of themselves for not literally using a whiteboard these days, but they still want you to write code while someone watches. I think for a lot of people, in spirit that is not so different from whiteboards.
- dabockster 9y ago> Wrong question - the right question is "which companies don't have the typical whiteboard interview" Wrong question. The right question is "which companies actually respond to you within a week of application submission". Those "reapply in six months if you don't hear anything" emails tell me a LOT about a company's real priorities.
- brianwawok 9y agoI would get better at interviewing. I know sounds not helpful but its a useful skill.
- HeyLaughingBoy 9y agoPretty much this. Once you get to the point that interviews are fun, you look forward to them.
- carlmr 9y agoI'd phrase it this way. If you're nervous and fumble interviews, don't stop going. Go to more interviews instead. After a while you'll be so used to it that your body stops reacting that way.
- RickS 9y agoDepends on what part of the interviewing process is slowing you down. Your other comment indicates that your question is not "what jobs interview with day-to-day challenges rather than google-scale hypotheticals" >They involve discussing real world problems and work experiences with me. I still do not get offers from them. The question should not be "how do I run from this problem" It is first "how do i get a credible assessment of why I didn't receive offers" and then "how do I build or repair that area of my skills" This applies equally if not especially to "soft skills" aka "how am I perceived by other humans". edit: I poked back into your history and it seems that you figured this out with your question from ~20 days ago. That's the right thread to pull IMO and it looks like that post got some responses. I'd say keep pushing in that area - sub one month is a very short timeline for both personal growth and varied interview rounds.
- ccdev 9y agoMy soft skills are good enough on the job. I hardly get complaints about communication issues with co-workers and also have taken part in client meetings at some companies, discussing their goals and requirements. I keep on track with everyone that is needed for a project. But almost everything about soft skills on a job interview feels too orthogonal and dissimilar to my applied work soft skills. Interviews like that are more suited for sales jobs, I think. Sales skills seem like they have been put on a pedestal. Therefore I cannot see these interviews as an accurate representation of most soft skills at work. Edit: Also about my older thread, are you referring to the one about returning to an office job after 2 years of being away from it? I really do feel like this is what I need and almost all the jobs I apply to require daily 9-5 office work. I'm a homebody and hang out only with 3 people regularly. It remains to be seen on the "when" of I'll get that kind of job.
- abeyer 9y ago> My soft skills are good enough on the job. I hardly get complaints about communication issues This isn't about you, I don't know you, and you may well be the exception to this. But, given that; in my experience everyone I've ever met in person who claims that their social skills are not why their (not just coding) interview skills are lacking is wrong. Often they're wrong because they don't even realize it, because their peers know that communications skills are lacking and then don't even raise the issue to avoid the possibility of a (quite common) poor reception of the feedback. Don't assume the lack of criticism as an endorsement. If someone thinks you lack something technically but have strong communication, they'll tell you that. If someone thinks you lack communication skills, they'll do their best to avoid treading on the viper, because they don't know how you'll respond. > But almost everything about soft skills on a job interview feels too orthogonal and dissimilar to my applied work soft skills. Interviews like that are more suited for sales jobs, I think. I'm not even 100% sure what you mean by that, but I read it as "I don't really need the skills you think I do." Again, I'm not sure that's what you meant, but as a disinterested third party, if I read it that way, I'd be surprised if some interviewers don't.
- lprubin 9y agoNepotism can be your friend. Meet people through meetups, open source projects, conferences, non-profit volunteer work, etc. When people know and respect you already and you have an internal champion, the interview process often is much smoother. You'll be more confortable too when you know them. You might even bypass some of the process as well.
- bshimmin 9y agoI think the word "networking" (not usually a negative) would fit better than "nepotism" (almost always seen as a negative) here. Hiring your friends - ahead of other candidates who might be better qualified - might well be considered nepotism, but going out of your way to make friends with people in the hope that they might hire you probably isn't nepotism as most people would understand it.
- ccdev 9y agoYeah, I agree on this use of the word. "Nepotism" implies getting the job through a connection regardless of anything else, but networking implies getting a job through a connection that is a source of trust of their qualifications.
- CoolGuySteve 9y agoThe problem is that "networking" as a term has been diluted to mean "introduce yourself to powerful strangers" as opposed to "build a network of people in your industry that respect you". With a good network, you can find a job. With good networking, you have a nice Rolodex without much influence.
- partycoder 9y agoReferrals can be a good source of talent, but nepotism has a very destructive effect at a large since it denies opportunities to talent that deserves them.
- mateo411 9y agoGenerally, nepotism refers to giving jobs or special treatment to people in your family. This is a good tactic but it requires having somebody else in your family working at a company that you are interested. This might not be possible. You are referring to networking. This is very important and can definitely help you land a job.
- sandworm101 9y agoThe armed forces are screaming for tech people and really dont care about your interview skills. The US marines are even talking about dropping thier basic training requirements IOT get more tech people.
- jarsin 9y agoDon't they have low age requirements?
- sandworm101 9y agoEach is different. No harm in asking.
- abeyer 9y agoYes. That said, most military recruitment requirements are requirements in the same way that "10 years of React experience" is a requirement... They ask for the world and make exceptions to get the people they want. But the bigger the exception, the more bureaucracy you should expect to wade through to make it happen.
- ccdev 9y agoWell I'm not certain what that age limit is, but their requirements sound strict. FWIW I am 34 years old.
- abstractbeliefs 9y agoThe interview requirements may be less, but many lifestyle factor requirements are far more stringent. Additionally, the military is unlikely to pay you favourably compared to the same job in civvy street.
- tiggybear 9y agoWork for yourself? Whenever we need to hit consultants for some work, we NEVER make them do technical exercises. We just trust their word. However, the people that want a steady paycheck are put through much more tedious tasks for less pay.
- brianwawok 9y agoThe last place I worked with consultant hiring.. an employee hire was like a full day of interviews.. consultant hire was 30 minute phone screen "Do you know what an ArrayList is"? Logic being it was very easy to fire bad consultants. Employees it was more work.
- redleggedfrog 9y agoThis might sound a little strange, but I would say programming. I have worked in the industry 25+ years now, and I've never had what I would call an interview. I've had informal lunches with the CIO, met the team at BBQ's, like that, but never anything more rigorous. On top of that, I'm fairly introverted, and don't have many friends, but I do have a large number of acquaintances, I'm known to be a good and loyal employee (I don't switch jobs near as often as the norm) and have kept up my skills (I hope) fairly well. I've gotten jobs because people knew about me, essentially, so it can be done. I kind of fear when I actually have to do an interview. I'm hoping I make it to the end of my career before that happens.
- ccdev 9y agoIt seems like you had enough luck to find yourself in relatively long, stable positions for work. I have job-hopped through various startups and other small companies, never staying in one place longer than 2 years. I'm introverted as well, and therefore never put much work into building a network. The colleagues I do know, never have anything for me regarding jobs. Basically I'm only good enough for those riskier jobs but not good enough (apparently) for more stable, "corporate" places. People don't know how hard it is to get a job offer until they are unemployed and don't have a good network. I would love it if I never have to worry about finding another job again.
- dsuth 9y agoThis is similar to me, but for engineering. Getting jobs via networking is much, much easier than cold-calling an interview. Talk to your friends and workmates, ex-managers etc. If you've done good work in the past, people will be happy to get you in on the fast track. Companies hate doing interviews, so anything they can do to streamline that process they will generally do. I'd broaden that to networking in general. Tech presentations also raise your profile, especially with manager types who attend.
- ccdev 9y agoEvery friend, colleague and former manager that I talk to has either lead to an interview (so I still don't skip interviewing) which I don't pass, but most of the time they just give me the same basic reply of: "I don't know of any job openings but I'll keep an eye out". No matter what time of the year, no matter how they're doing. I am at a loss for networking ideas.
- jmcminis 9y agoFounder, CTO. Lots of other requirements though.
- yesimahuman 9y agoStarting a startup. Honestly, the lack of control I felt at interviewing at the top tech firms back in college and my only average GPA was a big motivator for me to start my own business. I hated the idea that my career was out of my control and would depend on whether I could answer challenging interview questions under stress or my GPA/school. This was also at the peak of the ridiculous mythical word problems Microsoft, Google, et al were known for, and those were not my forte whatsoever. Best decision I ever made
- __julia__ 9y ago#RESPECT! that's a brave decision.
- secfirstmd 9y agoAgreed. Had setup a nonprofit before and was thinking about doing something different by joining a big commericial organsiation. Had the honour of being rejected by many of the biggest companies in the world - Google, Apple, Facebook, Stripe, Microsoft, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Statoil, Shell, KPMG etc. Its really quite impressive a list of organisations. :) Decided "Ah well, may aswell go and startup another business." Haven't looked back since.
- csomar 9y agoVery short answer. I assume you have had certain success with your startup. Do you mind expanding a bit on your experience.
- tedmiston 9y agoFor another perspective, my GPA was at the top of my graduating class in CS but I still had a similar train of thought as you. I fundamentally philosophically disagreed with how broken interviewing in the tech industry is especially at the bigger companies.
- nickthemagicman 9y agoWhats the name of your business?
- drumttocs8 9y agoYou are being interviewed to see if you have the technical skills to do the job, and to see how you well you interact with other people. You must learn to be confident and friendly. These are foundational skills.
- ccdev 9y agoWhy do some people (which includes me, I guess) have poorer foundational skills while being better at certain specialized field-specific skills, such as programming?
- fundingshovel 9y agoYou most likely work on your field specific skills orders of magnitude more often/intensely. What have you done to develop your foundational skills in general? Where are you weak? Where are you strong? What have you studied recently to make them better?
- ccdev 9y agoI am weak in closing the deal with job interviews, mainly. However I don't know what is the average ratio of offers to interviews for developers applying to mid-level jobs. So I guess you're saying I should be studying people skills, I guess? I often hear that I need to get mock interviews but there are few official sources for it. Also it's not very instructive to tell someone to just find any friend. Most people do not have experience interviewing programmers, so they wouldn't be good for mock interviews. And mock interviewing with friends would introduce too much of a positive bias you won't have from strangers.
- drumttocs8 9y agoI think it's common for us engineers- we care about the problem, the details. So that's what we focus on. And that can actually help in interviews- we can rely on our knowledge to give us the confidence we need. That sort of quiet confidence shows the interviewer that you can do the job. The rest of it is just treating the interviewer how you would want to be treated- with respect and kindness. That shows that you can get along with him and the rest of the team. That's it! That's all they're looking for.
- tiredwired 9y agoStartups and companies where technology is not their main product seem to have easier interview processes. If you can find a company that is contracting out their tech and wants to start developing in-house then they do not necessarily have a rigid tech hiring process.
- kclay 9y agoI was just going to post something along this line.. I've been to the 3-4th stage many times it it all falls when I have to do a video call.. every time ( about 25 interviews so far over the course of 4months). At this point I'm starting to think its more of a "culture" fit then anything else which I really dont like to think about. All of these are remote jobs which is odd cause they dont even have to see me or know my race. Even tried to apply to local jobs, no luck. But after having pass tech tests, multiple calls and had people very impress about my 10year career its hard to see anything else then the word "culture" in these instances.
- busterarm 9y agoAt any in-person shop or gig you'd have to relocate for, that video call would be your 2nd stage. I think you're a victim of the process and sheer numbers, tbh. Keep at it and you'll probably land something remote.
- kclay 9y agoI guess so, but in one instance I had 2 video interviews in one day with a total of 4 devs( all of the devs of the team). So it seems like it was both a tech interview (which I answered all their questions and was impressed) and then a "culture" test. Thru take home test passing, inital 2 calls with people then video calls afterwards just to fail just seems odd but maybe I'm overthinking it. Local interviews havn't been well either. They tend to fall apart in the second call (not video). Seems like most people dont do in-shop interview but all over the net now.
- muzani 9y agoAll my jobs were from people I met. Even when they have some interview, I get offered the job before the interview, and the interviews are rigged to let me pass. I normally get filtered out of phone interviews for some reason, with no technical questions. I do perfectly fine when it's a technical interview. I guess I just don't have an attractive personality.