8 ms·

What about them? How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes?

ryan-allen 9y ago
I guess not all murderers and murderous philosophies are created equal, huh?
rdtsc 9y ago
> How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes? What does fascists even mean these days? Real fascists wounded my grandfather and he pushed them back all the way to Berlin. My teacher wintessed German soldiers raping and dismembering their childhood friend. It seems these days I see a lot of "everyone I don't like is a fascist". Trump is a fascist, the barista this morning who made me a late instead of a cappuccino is a fascist, etc. Pol Pot committed terrible attrocities that doesn't make him a fascist, he was Communist.
- dashundchen 9y ago
  How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion.
  - hutzlibu 9y ago
    "Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? " I don't. I rather have people saying out loud, that they want to kill me, than saying it it in private and then just doing it ... so I - and others (like police) know whats going on, and can prepare for them. If you forbid things to be said out loud, they will just boil hiddenly, until they explode.
- guidovranken 9y ago
  To dashundchen and others who feel nazism is the absolute threshold beyond which speech ceases to be free. > How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. > Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion. So how about jihadists who mutilate genitals at music concerts and behead little children? And who are very clear about their intent to kill millions more? There are few things I hate more than muslim extremists, yet I am strongly in favor of not obstructing these people's ability to put their stuff online. We can even learn a thing or two from it that helps us defeat them, same goes for nazis. Isn't it obvious that everything besides radical freedom of speech is bound to descend into a quagmire of arbitrarily constructed and enforced rules? It is really a little embarrassing to see that "the vaguely Marxist but comfortably bourgeoisie hacker community" as James Mickens beautifully put it is split on an issue around free speech.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    I'm pretty OK with saying the marketplace of ideas has evaluated the ideals of Nazism and found no need remaining to preserve or protect them. We have, after all, tried the experiment of negotiating with Nazis, appeasing Nazis, and seeking peaceful coëxistence with Nazis, and we've learned what the resulting body count is. People like to say "never again", but it's important to actually mean it.
    - j9461701 9y ago
      The marketplace of ideas evaluated the ideals of Nazism, and rejected them by itself the first time. The fact we even call them Nazis is testament to that - it's an insulting reference to the fact National Socialists were uneducated country bumpkins. In battles of wits and words, Nazis lost every single time. So the idea we need to violate our ideals about freedom of speech, to defeat an enemy who never did stand a chance against us in that way, makes no sense. Do you really think our society's beliefs are truly so weak? That we are truly that vulnerable to pernicious memes? Now, if you want to talk "never again" - it is not words that should frighten us, but violence. It was the brown shirts working the streets and savaging anyone who dared speak contrary to the Nazis that allowed them to obtain real power in the elections. It was the night of the long knives that saw the Nazi's staunchest critics in the Reichstag assassinated, and Hitler's control finally secured. It was the night of broken glass that normalized widespread violence against Jews, and set the stage for what was to come. It was violence that gave strength to Nazism, that let it rise to prominence, that let it overcome the Prussian elite who despised it and let it seize control of the country. Nazism only succeeds by first putting its boot to the throat of the public, and threatening to crush the windpipe of any critic. Without that, it is just incoherent, anti-intellectual gibberish concocted by brutish thugs - and is torn apart in the market of ideas as a result. I fear a non-violent Nazi about as much as I fear a toothless wolf.
nyolfen 9y ago
how about the purpose of self-identification rather than convenient relabeling that i'm sure has nothing to do with your political allegiances?
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  Convenient relabeling? I beg your pardon? Aren't you just conveniently making up shit right now?

I guess not all murderers and murderous philosophies are created equal, huh?

> How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes? What does fascists even mean these days? Real fascists wounded my grandfather and he pushed them back all the way to Berlin. My teacher wintessed German soldiers raping and dismembering their childhood friend. It seems these days I see a lot of "everyone I don't like is a fascist". Trump is a fascist, the barista this morning who made me a late instead of a cappuccino is a fascist, etc. Pol Pot committed terrible attrocities that doesn't make him a fascist, he was Communist.

dashundchen 9y ago
How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  "Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? " I don't. I rather have people saying out loud, that they want to kill me, than saying it it in private and then just doing it ... so I - and others (like police) know whats going on, and can prepare for them. If you forbid things to be said out loud, they will just boil hiddenly, until they explode.
guidovranken 9y ago
To dashundchen and others who feel nazism is the absolute threshold beyond which speech ceases to be free. > How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. > Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion. So how about jihadists who mutilate genitals at music concerts and behead little children? And who are very clear about their intent to kill millions more? There are few things I hate more than muslim extremists, yet I am strongly in favor of not obstructing these people's ability to put their stuff online. We can even learn a thing or two from it that helps us defeat them, same goes for nazis. Isn't it obvious that everything besides radical freedom of speech is bound to descend into a quagmire of arbitrarily constructed and enforced rules? It is really a little embarrassing to see that "the vaguely Marxist but comfortably bourgeoisie hacker community" as James Mickens beautifully put it is split on an issue around free speech.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  I'm pretty OK with saying the marketplace of ideas has evaluated the ideals of Nazism and found no need remaining to preserve or protect them. We have, after all, tried the experiment of negotiating with Nazis, appeasing Nazis, and seeking peaceful coëxistence with Nazis, and we've learned what the resulting body count is. People like to say "never again", but it's important to actually mean it.
  - j9461701 9y ago
    The marketplace of ideas evaluated the ideals of Nazism, and rejected them by itself the first time. The fact we even call them Nazis is testament to that - it's an insulting reference to the fact National Socialists were uneducated country bumpkins. In battles of wits and words, Nazis lost every single time. So the idea we need to violate our ideals about freedom of speech, to defeat an enemy who never did stand a chance against us in that way, makes no sense. Do you really think our society's beliefs are truly so weak? That we are truly that vulnerable to pernicious memes? Now, if you want to talk "never again" - it is not words that should frighten us, but violence. It was the brown shirts working the streets and savaging anyone who dared speak contrary to the Nazis that allowed them to obtain real power in the elections. It was the night of the long knives that saw the Nazi's staunchest critics in the Reichstag assassinated, and Hitler's control finally secured. It was the night of broken glass that normalized widespread violence against Jews, and set the stage for what was to come. It was violence that gave strength to Nazism, that let it rise to prominence, that let it overcome the Prussian elite who despised it and let it seize control of the country. Nazism only succeeds by first putting its boot to the throat of the public, and threatening to crush the windpipe of any critic. Without that, it is just incoherent, anti-intellectual gibberish concocted by brutish thugs - and is torn apart in the market of ideas as a result. I fear a non-violent Nazi about as much as I fear a toothless wolf.

nyolfen 9y ago

how about the purpose of self-identification rather than convenient relabeling that i'm sure has nothing to do with your political allegiances?

thinkfurther 9y ago
Convenient relabeling? I beg your pardon? Aren't you just conveniently making up shit right now?