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There are few things worse than nazis. Just make sure your content is better than fascist propaganda and you should be good.

larsiusprime 9y ago
How about ISIS? http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anonymous-opisis-cloudflare-refuses-block-service-pro-isis-websites-1495758 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anonymous-opisis-cloudflare-refuses...
- ryan-allen 9y ago
  Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot? They killed _millions_ for arbitrary reasons. What about them?
  - thinkfurther 9y ago
    What about them? How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes?
    - ryan-allen 9y ago
      I guess not all murderers and murderous philosophies are created equal, huh?
    - rdtsc 9y ago
      > How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes? What does fascists even mean these days? Real fascists wounded my grandfather and he pushed them back all the way to Berlin. My teacher wintessed German soldiers raping and dismembering their childhood friend. It seems these days I see a lot of "everyone I don't like is a fascist". Trump is a fascist, the barista this morning who made me a late instead of a cappuccino is a fascist, etc. Pol Pot committed terrible attrocities that doesn't make him a fascist, he was Communist.
      - dashundchen 9y ago
        How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion.
        hutzlibu 9y ago
        "Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? " I don't. I rather have people saying out loud, that they want to kill me, than saying it it in private and then just doing it ... so I - and others (like police) know whats going on, and can prepare for them. If you forbid things to be said out loud, they will just boil hiddenly, until they explode.
      - guidovranken 9y ago
        To dashundchen and others who feel nazism is the absolute threshold beyond which speech ceases to be free. > How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. > Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion. So how about jihadists who mutilate genitals at music concerts and behead little children? And who are very clear about their intent to kill millions more? There are few things I hate more than muslim extremists, yet I am strongly in favor of not obstructing these people's ability to put their stuff online. We can even learn a thing or two from it that helps us defeat them, same goes for nazis. Isn't it obvious that everything besides radical freedom of speech is bound to descend into a quagmire of arbitrarily constructed and enforced rules? It is really a little embarrassing to see that "the vaguely Marxist but comfortably bourgeoisie hacker community" as James Mickens beautifully put it is split on an issue around free speech.
        ubernostrum 9y ago
    - nyolfen 9y ago
      how about the purpose of self-identification rather than convenient relabeling that i'm sure has nothing to do with your political allegiances?
      - thinkfurther 9y ago
        Convenient relabeling? I beg your pardon? Aren't you just conveniently making up shit right now?
- kbaker 9y ago
  Wow, yeah, this article should be higher up. Choice quotes, from the same guy, regarding taking down ISIS sites: Speaking with IBTimes UK, co-founder and CEO of CloudFlare, Matthew Prince, said that his company would not be blocking its service to websites listed, as it would mean submitting to "mob rule". "Individuals have decided that there is content they disagree with but the right way to deal with this is to follow the established law enforcement procedures. There is no society on Earth that tolerates mob rule because the mob is fickle," Prince said. ... "We're the plumbers of the internet," Prince said. "We make the pipes work but it's not right for us to inspect what is or isn't going through the pipes. If companies like ours or ISPs (internet service providers) start censoring there would be an uproar. It would lead us down a path of internet censors and controls akin to a country like China." Must have been in a pretty bad mood.
  - occultist_throw 9y ago
    They already do, with TOR. They can die in a gutter, for all I care. They made their line, with the political dissenters, the quiet, and the the hidden. But you know, blame the "bad people" and the "abusers".
- neo4sure 9y ago
  What about ISIS are they citizens of the US?
whoeffingcares 9y ago
Actually there's lots and Prince allows all of it. If you want to be good you need to look at other companies.
sbmassey 9y ago
Most right wing politicians in the west have been called Nazis at one time or another.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Very few of those folks held up torches in public chanting an English version of a Nazi slogan. Even fewer still walk in public rallies waving Nazi flags, or hop in cars and run down counter-protesters. So maybe I this case the general public can distinguish between literal and figurative fascism. The Daily Stormer supported acts of violence committed by the former, not the later.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- vacri 9y ago
  As a member of neither continent, I find it beyond bizarre that in Europe, they're perfectly capable of determining from context whether someone called a 'nazi' is just having a slur thrown against them, or is actually a follower of the ideology, whereas in America they can't seem to tell the difference. Some yobbo calling a senator a nazi doesn't literally mean the senator is one, whereas people that wave nazi flags, openly promote nazi policies, and wander around giving the nazi salute are a different kettle of fish. It's like that in America, what things are called is more important than what they are. Obviously there are plenty of Americans perfectly capable of understanding context, but they don't seem to be in control of the political narrative.
  - UnpossibleJim 9y ago
    You know, I was going to spit venom back, discussing the European in fighting and greed post WWI for putting those goose stepping morons in a place where normal people thought they held the answers. But, if you can't be trusted to listen to why the Nazis were put into power and not skip to the atrocities, why would I think you'd understand why our politic and society is the way it is.
briholt 9y ago
Famous last words before you get silenced.
lisper 9y ago
> There are few things worse than nazis. Just make sure your content is better than fascist propaganda and you should be good. One man's fascist propaganda is another man's social revolution. This is the thing everyone forgets about the Nazis: they genuinely thought they were the good guys.
- invisible 9y ago
  The difference is that they thought they were the "good guys" and that other, lower humans, were ruining mankind's gene pool. They pushed for separating those classes of people, and then to kill a portion of them since segregation/"concentration" camps weren't enough. That's not at all equivalent to other types of discussions we are having today about the economy, the environment, and education.
  - lisper 9y ago
    I think you've lost the plot here. We're talking about who gets to decide what content gets to stay on the internet and what gets booted off.
    - invisible 9y ago
      I guess completely out of context your comment may mean something else to you. In the context of this thread it seems like you're saying that there are other "social revolutions" that could be squashed because of content restrictions that are defended based on this incident. If you're just saying that some company could be controlled by a "Nazi" and they may restrict their services, I get that. I don't think it's a "slippery slope" type of argument though.
      - lisper 9y ago
        I'm saying that it's often hard to tell the difference between a positive social revolution and a repugnant one. Every social revolution is repugnant to someone, otherwise it wouldn't be a revolution. I am willing to defend your right to say things I find repugnant in order to preserve my right to say things you -- or more to the point, the CEO of my ISP -- may find repugnant. Just for the record, I find the nazis and the neo-nazis repugnant. I'm a descendant of holocaust survivors, so seeing swastikas being paraded down the street in America hits very close to home for me. And I have no problem shutting down incitements to violence. But that's not what happened here. The Daily Stormer was taken off the air because of an alleged false claim that they made about their CDN. That is a very dangerous precedent.
ibevanned 9y ago
Yeah, like Communists right? Stalin and Mao killed far more people then the Nazis, but I'll be down voted and banned because my opinion doesn't fit your ideological narrative. This is assuming I even am allowed to post my view at all.
- reitanqild 9y ago
  Fact. Still to me blocking nazi comtent is even more obvious since their violence is even closer linked to their ideology.
  - hutzlibu 9y ago
    that is not very clear, since "communism" can mean many different rhings. And in the way of Pol porlt and co. it was clearly linked to violence
puranjay 9y ago
Well, ISIS has a large internet presence. To me, actual terrorists actually committing terrorism is far worse than bratty idiots throwing the N-word around on an internet forum
- cmurf 9y ago
  FBI and DHS assess that white supremacist extremists were responsible for more attacks than any other domestic extremist movement, from 2000 to 2016. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3924852-White-Supremacist-Extremism-JIB.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3924852-White-Suprem...
  - throw158965 9y ago
    More attacks or more fatalities? This is a silly metric. 9-11 was a single attack.
    - cmurf 9y ago
      9/11 was a foreign sourced attack, this assessment is about domestic extremism.
hutzlibu 9y ago
the thing is where does it end, once cencorship started ..

larsiusprime 9y ago

How about ISIS? http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anonymous-opisis-cloudflare-refuses-block-service-pro-isis-websites-1495758 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anonymous-opisis-cloudflare-refuses...

ryan-allen 9y ago
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot? They killed _millions_ for arbitrary reasons. What about them?
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  What about them? How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes?
  - ryan-allen 9y ago
    I guess not all murderers and murderous philosophies are created equal, huh?
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    > How were they not fascists, for all practical purposes? What does fascists even mean these days? Real fascists wounded my grandfather and he pushed them back all the way to Berlin. My teacher wintessed German soldiers raping and dismembering their childhood friend. It seems these days I see a lot of "everyone I don't like is a fascist". Trump is a fascist, the barista this morning who made me a late instead of a cappuccino is a fascist, etc. Pol Pot committed terrible attrocities that doesn't make him a fascist, he was Communist.
    - dashundchen 9y ago
      How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion.
      - hutzlibu 9y ago
        "Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? " I don't. I rather have people saying out loud, that they want to kill me, than saying it it in private and then just doing it ... so I - and others (like police) know whats going on, and can prepare for them. If you forbid things to be said out loud, they will just boil hiddenly, until they explode.
    - guidovranken 9y ago
      To dashundchen and others who feel nazism is the absolute threshold beyond which speech ceases to be free. > How about literal neonazis waving swastikas, calling for violence to exterminate Jews and blacks? Ones literally identify with Nazi facists. > Do you not accept a line where free speech threatening violence harms other free individuals? This isn't a thought excercise, the Daily Stormer is a group calling for the extermination of people based on race and religion. So how about jihadists who mutilate genitals at music concerts and behead little children? And who are very clear about their intent to kill millions more? There are few things I hate more than muslim extremists, yet I am strongly in favor of not obstructing these people's ability to put their stuff online. We can even learn a thing or two from it that helps us defeat them, same goes for nazis. Isn't it obvious that everything besides radical freedom of speech is bound to descend into a quagmire of arbitrarily constructed and enforced rules? It is really a little embarrassing to see that "the vaguely Marxist but comfortably bourgeoisie hacker community" as James Mickens beautifully put it is split on an issue around free speech.
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
  - nyolfen 9y ago
    how about the purpose of self-identification rather than convenient relabeling that i'm sure has nothing to do with your political allegiances?
    - thinkfurther 9y ago
      Convenient relabeling? I beg your pardon? Aren't you just conveniently making up shit right now?
kbaker 9y ago
Wow, yeah, this article should be higher up. Choice quotes, from the same guy, regarding taking down ISIS sites: Speaking with IBTimes UK, co-founder and CEO of CloudFlare, Matthew Prince, said that his company would not be blocking its service to websites listed, as it would mean submitting to "mob rule". "Individuals have decided that there is content they disagree with but the right way to deal with this is to follow the established law enforcement procedures. There is no society on Earth that tolerates mob rule because the mob is fickle," Prince said. ... "We're the plumbers of the internet," Prince said. "We make the pipes work but it's not right for us to inspect what is or isn't going through the pipes. If companies like ours or ISPs (internet service providers) start censoring there would be an uproar. It would lead us down a path of internet censors and controls akin to a country like China." Must have been in a pretty bad mood.
- occultist_throw 9y ago
  They already do, with TOR. They can die in a gutter, for all I care. They made their line, with the political dissenters, the quiet, and the the hidden. But you know, blame the "bad people" and the "abusers".
neo4sure 9y ago
What about ISIS are they citizens of the US?

whoeffingcares 9y ago

Actually there's lots and Prince allows all of it. If you want to be good you need to look at other companies.

sbmassey 9y ago

Most right wing politicians in the west have been called Nazis at one time or another.

KirinDave 9y ago
Very few of those folks held up torches in public chanting an English version of a Nazi slogan. Even fewer still walk in public rallies waving Nazi flags, or hop in cars and run down counter-protesters. So maybe I this case the general public can distinguish between literal and figurative fascism. The Daily Stormer supported acts of violence committed by the former, not the later.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
vacri 9y ago
As a member of neither continent, I find it beyond bizarre that in Europe, they're perfectly capable of determining from context whether someone called a 'nazi' is just having a slur thrown against them, or is actually a follower of the ideology, whereas in America they can't seem to tell the difference. Some yobbo calling a senator a nazi doesn't literally mean the senator is one, whereas people that wave nazi flags, openly promote nazi policies, and wander around giving the nazi salute are a different kettle of fish. It's like that in America, what things are called is more important than what they are. Obviously there are plenty of Americans perfectly capable of understanding context, but they don't seem to be in control of the political narrative.
- UnpossibleJim 9y ago
  You know, I was going to spit venom back, discussing the European in fighting and greed post WWI for putting those goose stepping morons in a place where normal people thought they held the answers. But, if you can't be trusted to listen to why the Nazis were put into power and not skip to the atrocities, why would I think you'd understand why our politic and society is the way it is.

briholt 9y ago

Famous last words before you get silenced.

lisper 9y ago

> There are few things worse than nazis. Just make sure your content is better than fascist propaganda and you should be good. One man's fascist propaganda is another man's social revolution. This is the thing everyone forgets about the Nazis: they genuinely thought they were the good guys.

invisible 9y ago
The difference is that they thought they were the "good guys" and that other, lower humans, were ruining mankind's gene pool. They pushed for separating those classes of people, and then to kill a portion of them since segregation/"concentration" camps weren't enough. That's not at all equivalent to other types of discussions we are having today about the economy, the environment, and education.
- lisper 9y ago
  I think you've lost the plot here. We're talking about who gets to decide what content gets to stay on the internet and what gets booted off.
  - invisible 9y ago
    I guess completely out of context your comment may mean something else to you. In the context of this thread it seems like you're saying that there are other "social revolutions" that could be squashed because of content restrictions that are defended based on this incident. If you're just saying that some company could be controlled by a "Nazi" and they may restrict their services, I get that. I don't think it's a "slippery slope" type of argument though.
    - lisper 9y ago
      I'm saying that it's often hard to tell the difference between a positive social revolution and a repugnant one. Every social revolution is repugnant to someone, otherwise it wouldn't be a revolution. I am willing to defend your right to say things I find repugnant in order to preserve my right to say things you -- or more to the point, the CEO of my ISP -- may find repugnant. Just for the record, I find the nazis and the neo-nazis repugnant. I'm a descendant of holocaust survivors, so seeing swastikas being paraded down the street in America hits very close to home for me. And I have no problem shutting down incitements to violence. But that's not what happened here. The Daily Stormer was taken off the air because of an alleged false claim that they made about their CDN. That is a very dangerous precedent.

ibevanned 9y ago

Yeah, like Communists right? Stalin and Mao killed far more people then the Nazis, but I'll be down voted and banned because my opinion doesn't fit your ideological narrative. This is assuming I even am allowed to post my view at all.

reitanqild 9y ago
Fact. Still to me blocking nazi comtent is even more obvious since their violence is even closer linked to their ideology.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  that is not very clear, since "communism" can mean many different rhings. And in the way of Pol porlt and co. it was clearly linked to violence

puranjay 9y ago

Well, ISIS has a large internet presence. To me, actual terrorists actually committing terrorism is far worse than bratty idiots throwing the N-word around on an internet forum

cmurf 9y ago
FBI and DHS assess that white supremacist extremists were responsible for more attacks than any other domestic extremist movement, from 2000 to 2016. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3924852-White-Supremacist-Extremism-JIB.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3924852-White-Suprem...
- throw158965 9y ago
  More attacks or more fatalities? This is a silly metric. 9-11 was a single attack.
  - cmurf 9y ago
    9/11 was a foreign sourced attack, this assessment is about domestic extremism.

hutzlibu 9y ago

the thing is where does it end, once cencorship started ..