6 ms·

As someone worried about security; I hope that is not the majority opinion.

by smkdtr 9y ago

Silhouette 9y ago
It's not entirely unreasonable. We use software because it's useful. If you make it so secure that it is no longer useful, what have you got left? In the case of Firefox extensions, I'm aware of the risks of the old model, but the fact is that the only observable difference it has made to me so far is that when I accidentally hit back on a page with an unsubmitted form the other day I lost about 20 minutes' worth of work, because the extension I used to use that would have saved everything automatically no longer works. This is not progress.
- sp332 9y ago
  Lazarus: Form Recovery hasn't been maintained in years. But I don't think there's anything about it that can't be done with web extensions. There's already one that has the base functionality: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/textarea-cache-lite/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/textarea-cach...
- jhatax 9y ago
  If you hit Backspace in error, you can disable the “Go Back” action associated with the backspace key using about:config like so: browser.backspace_action = 2 Read [1] for more instructions. If you explicitly used the mouse to click the Back button, I am sorry for the time you lost. 1. http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.backspace_action http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.backspace_action
  - markrages 9y ago
    Allow me to introduce the Thinkpad X61 keyboard: http://i.imgur.com/JitlIPa.jpg http://i.imgur.com/JitlIPa.jpg That's a dedicated "go back" button between up arrow and right ctrl. My webmail is unusable without Lazarus. I've taken to composing in emacs and pasting the result into forms.
    - michaelmrose 9y ago
      With the appropriate extension this can be made seemless. Hit a hotkey get an emacs buffer with the current contents of input box. Write some stuff and save and quit. Input box now contains contents of emacs buffer. Annoyingly this requires a service that sits in the background in chrome because security wont let chrome launch such a process. In chrome you can use text-aid-too. Pentadactyl/vimperator can do it with firefox and others.
    - fnj 9y ago
      I don't see any control keys at all in that picture! This has to be a joke.
      - detaro 9y ago
        There are more languages than English in the world. Keyboard has 2 control keys, as it should.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    browser.backspace_action = 2 Thank you, that's very useful! My earlier mistake was clicking to focus on my Firefox window but not quite on the form text area I was aiming for, and then trying to delete the last word I had typed. Your tip would have saved me on that occasion.
- pcwalton 9y ago
  The idea that the XUL extension model is necessary for a browser to be useful is obviously false. The majority of Web users use browsers that do not have a XUL extension model. (And, of course, I don't believe your desired functionality is incompatible with Web Extensions anyhow.)
  - userbinator 9y ago
    The majority of Web users use browsers that do not have a XUL extension model And the majority of these users may have no idea what an extension is either. That doesn't mean all browsers should be dumbed down to cater to the lowest-common-denominator who will manage to infect themselves regardless of how featureless and "secure" browsers become.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    With respect, that doesn't really matter. I used to have a useful feature that worked. Now I don't. That was the practical result of the change we're talking about for this user, regardless of any theoretical benefits elsewhere or any theoretical ability to provide equivalent functionality within the new architecture. Other people are welcome to use other browsers, but I was using Firefox, and a big reason I was still using Firefox despite various other changes I didn't particularly want was the range of useful extensions I could choose from.
    - jabl 9y ago
      > I used to have a useful feature that worked. > Now I don't. Well, imagine for a moment that you're whoever is in charge of firefox development at mozilla: - You want to take advantage of modern hardware such as multiple cores, GPU's etc. - You want to get rid of XUL which is an evolutionary dead end. - You have an existing extension model which basically allows extensions to more or less freely poke about in the internals of the browser - You want to improve security for users, both against malicious sites and (to a lesser extent, I suppose, but still) malicious browser extensions. Now, what would YOU do if the constraint is that you can never ever break existing extensions?
floatingatoll 9y ago
Sadly, it is.
mst 9y ago
I'd like better permissions, but not at the cost of a more flexible, customisable browser than chrome. There should be reasons to use firefox above and beyond muscle memory.
ingenuous2 9y ago
Usability will always beat security. This is why usability is one of the 2 most important concerns in security.
- vocatus_gate 9y ago
  Security is like Safety: if it is put on a holy pedestal then everything else suffers. I always say "Safety Third."
michaelmrose 9y ago
This would help all the individuals who have inadvertently installed malware addons which do not have pwned systems as soon as there are any, if there are ever any.

As someone worried about security; I hope that is not the majority opinion.

by smkdtr 9y ago

As someone worried about security; I hope that is not the majority opinion.

It's not entirely unreasonable. We use software because it's useful. If you make it so secure that it is no longer useful, what have you got left? In the case of Firefox extensions, I'm aware of the risks of the old model, but the fact is that the only observable difference it has made to me so far is that when I accidentally hit back on a page with an unsubmitted form the other day I lost about 20 minutes' worth of work, because the extension I used to use that would have saved everything automatically no longer works. This is not progress.

sp332 9y ago
Lazarus: Form Recovery hasn't been maintained in years. But I don't think there's anything about it that can't be done with web extensions. There's already one that has the base functionality: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/textarea-cache-lite/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/textarea-cach...
jhatax 9y ago
If you hit Backspace in error, you can disable the “Go Back” action associated with the backspace key using about:config like so: browser.backspace_action = 2 Read [1] for more instructions. If you explicitly used the mouse to click the Back button, I am sorry for the time you lost. 1. http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.backspace_action http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.backspace_action
- markrages 9y ago
  Allow me to introduce the Thinkpad X61 keyboard: http://i.imgur.com/JitlIPa.jpg http://i.imgur.com/JitlIPa.jpg That's a dedicated "go back" button between up arrow and right ctrl. My webmail is unusable without Lazarus. I've taken to composing in emacs and pasting the result into forms.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    With the appropriate extension this can be made seemless. Hit a hotkey get an emacs buffer with the current contents of input box. Write some stuff and save and quit. Input box now contains contents of emacs buffer. Annoyingly this requires a service that sits in the background in chrome because security wont let chrome launch such a process. In chrome you can use text-aid-too. Pentadactyl/vimperator can do it with firefox and others.
  - fnj 9y ago
    I don't see any control keys at all in that picture! This has to be a joke.
    - detaro 9y ago
      There are more languages than English in the world. Keyboard has 2 control keys, as it should.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  browser.backspace_action = 2 Thank you, that's very useful! My earlier mistake was clicking to focus on my Firefox window but not quite on the form text area I was aiming for, and then trying to delete the last word I had typed. Your tip would have saved me on that occasion.
pcwalton 9y ago
The idea that the XUL extension model is necessary for a browser to be useful is obviously false. The majority of Web users use browsers that do not have a XUL extension model. (And, of course, I don't believe your desired functionality is incompatible with Web Extensions anyhow.)
- userbinator 9y ago
  The majority of Web users use browsers that do not have a XUL extension model And the majority of these users may have no idea what an extension is either. That doesn't mean all browsers should be dumbed down to cater to the lowest-common-denominator who will manage to infect themselves regardless of how featureless and "secure" browsers become.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  With respect, that doesn't really matter. I used to have a useful feature that worked. Now I don't. That was the practical result of the change we're talking about for this user, regardless of any theoretical benefits elsewhere or any theoretical ability to provide equivalent functionality within the new architecture. Other people are welcome to use other browsers, but I was using Firefox, and a big reason I was still using Firefox despite various other changes I didn't particularly want was the range of useful extensions I could choose from.
  - jabl 9y ago
    > I used to have a useful feature that worked. > Now I don't. Well, imagine for a moment that you're whoever is in charge of firefox development at mozilla: - You want to take advantage of modern hardware such as multiple cores, GPU's etc. - You want to get rid of XUL which is an evolutionary dead end. - You have an existing extension model which basically allows extensions to more or less freely poke about in the internals of the browser - You want to improve security for users, both against malicious sites and (to a lesser extent, I suppose, but still) malicious browser extensions. Now, what would YOU do if the constraint is that you can never ever break existing extensions?

floatingatoll 9y ago

Sadly, it is.

mst 9y ago

I'd like better permissions, but not at the cost of a more flexible, customisable browser than chrome. There should be reasons to use firefox above and beyond muscle memory.

ingenuous2 9y ago

Usability will always beat security. This is why usability is one of the 2 most important concerns in security.

vocatus_gate 9y ago
Security is like Safety: if it is put on a holy pedestal then everything else suffers. I always say "Safety Third."

michaelmrose 9y ago

This would help all the individuals who have inadvertently installed malware addons which do not have pwned systems as soon as there are any, if there are ever any.