6 ms·

So what's the big picture here? We've suspected for years that football leads to brain trauma. Does that mean the NFL should shut down? Should they continue to

by Azkar 9y ago

So what's the big picture here? We've suspected for years that football leads to brain trauma. Does that mean the NFL should shut down? Should they continue to operate as normal? There have been efforts recently to make the game safer for players, but the amount of concussions and injuries seen every season don't seem to be decreasing. Can you make the game "more safe" without drastically changing the game? Any game played at this high of a speed, with this strong of players is going to have some inherent danger to it. Do we just need to make the effects more widely known and understood by the players, maybe treat football like smoking with warnings printed on the outside of helmets? Anything less than that and you run the risk of not making your point. Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country?

Splines 9y ago
> Can you make the game "more safe" without drastically changing the game? Any game played at this high of a speed, with this strong of players is going to have some inherent danger to it. I'm only a casual watcher of football, but I think it would be possible to change the game. My non-expert impression is that the game has evolved over the years (and I could certainly be wrong) and incentivizing players to avoid causing head trauma by penalties seems like the way forward (above and beyond current helmet-helmet collision rules). Maybe adding shock sensors to the helmets to objectively measure impacts is another thing they can do. It would be interesting to learn what they already do today wrt measuring the forces on the head's of players. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if the game changes. I would be satisfied watching them play the equivalent of flag football - high level strategy and athletic clutch plays can still occur with a safer game.
- cjbprime 9y ago
  I've read it may be the case that the head collisions at the snap at the start of every single play is causing CTE via microconcussions, not just the dramatic concussions you can see overtly. Also, teams practice more than they play. Practice causes concussions too, and penalties won't help.
nilved 9y ago
By this definition football is basically modern Gladiatorial combat.
- phkahler 9y ago
  >> By this definition football is basically modern Gladiatorial combat. Why would you have ever thought otherwise? Didn't you notice the coliseum looks like an ancient stadium? Football is very much a man-v-man battle and that's exactly why a lot of people like it.
geophile 9y ago
Yes, the NFL should shut down. Yes, it is worse than the 3rd world child labor scenario. The kid in the 3rd world probably has no other choices, and along with his peers, may actually be improving things for his society. Nicholas Kristof (of all people) pointed this out when it was found that someone documenting the horrible conditions at Foxconn fabricated melodramatic stories. (This was a big kerfuffle on This American Life a couple of years ago.) The football player, living in a 1st world country, has other options. It is criminal that the responsible adults (coaches, recruiters) don't point out that they are signing up for virtually guaranteed severe brain damage.
- prostoalex 9y ago
  The only reason you don't hear of NFL slump is that contracts between broadcast networks and the league are negotiated well into the future. TV cord cutting is on the rise, TV usage is down, having to compete with online and mobile time, ESPN figures drag down the entire Disney empire, ESPN is going through layoffs almost each month, seems like. When the time finally comes for cable networks to re-negotiate the deals, NFL numbers won't look as pretty. Which means lower expenses, higher consolidation, lower player salaries, etc. It won't disappear entirely, but will be just another sport like NASCAR or horse racing, reaching a rather narrow group of avid followers.
- srj 9y ago
  How is it fair to the people who want to sign up for it that you're making the decision for them? There's no social ill conferred on the greater public by their decision, what's the reason for meddling in their lives?
  - mmmrtl 9y ago
    The general public shouldn't be interested in watching people give themselves brain damage for millions of dollars. Without the monetary incentive, people wouldn't be playing football at this level (or the high school and NCAA feeders), which sure looks like exploitation to me. If the NFL has known about the risks for years and continued with its business model, it should absolutely face lawsuits and financial ruin.
runT1ME 9y ago
Take the helmets off. Players would no longer run at each other head first, and be forced to grapple a bit more. Concussions are en extreme rarity in grappling/wrestling sports. They can still happen, but it's a freak accident rather than an inevitability each down.
- dv_dt 9y ago
  It would be interesting to study Rugby comparatively re: concussion.
  - coob 9y ago
    Here's an interesting article on how Rugby is ignoring CTE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11857548/Rugby-uncovered-Game-still-has-head-in-sand-over-the-risks-of-brain-damage.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11857548/Rugby-u...
    - nicwest 9y ago
      There is a decent interview with Jamie Cudmore on the rugby dungeon where he talks pretty candidly about concussion issues: https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-22jamiecudmore https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-22jamiecudmore
- k3oni 9y ago
  I second this, american football derived from rugby. Look at how rugby players tackle with no helmets and no padding. It really looks like adding the protective gear doesn't help the players as much as they were thinking.
  - jackhack 9y ago
    I've heard the same argument applied to automobiles. Would people drive more safely/carefully/considerately if a metal spike were attached to the steering wheel rather than an airbag? I can't pretend to know the answer, but it's interesting in that behaviors definitely change if there are costs associated with the actions.
ceautery 9y ago
We could start by doing similar studies in other sports. Do rugby players get CTE as often? Can American football players retrain?
cjbprime 9y ago
> Does that mean the NFL should shut down? Probably not. > Should they continue to operate as normal? No. > Can you make the game "more safe" without drastically changing the game? Depends what you mean by drastic. Removing helmets from the game seems like one possibility, bringing it closer to rugby. I don't know if there have been CTE examinations of rugby players, but the intuition is that people won't collide heads at high acceleration on every single play if they're not wearing helmets. > Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Yes, I'd say so without changes. Malcolm Gladwell in 2009 wrote that watching football is starting to feel like watching dogfighting. It seemed ridiculous at the time and is not ridiculous now. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/10/19/offensive-play http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/10/19/offensive-play > Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country? Depends on the factory, I guess? Some of those jobs probably pay well relative to other options for those workers, even accounting for danger etc. In comparison, watching humans give each other brain damage because it's fun is harder to find potentially redeeming qualities for.
- noxToken 9y ago
  > Yes, I'd say so without changes. Malcolm Gladwell in 2009 wrote that watching football is starting to feel like watching dogfighting. It seemed ridiculous at the time and is not ridiculous now. But now the players know. It would be different if we kept the player locked underground with no contact to the outside world. The fact is that they're making the choice to play even though the risks have been outlined. I don't watch football. I follow stats (which is like watching without watching) though. I don't feel bad, because now they're adults making an informed decision.
stevenwoo 9y ago
Well, it's kind of like boxing or MMA in that the athletes are trading quality of life in the future for money now. Whether that is of value we currently leave to the athletes. But there's nothing that can be done according to Omalu, the guy who fought the NFL to make his findings public. If you are not familiar with the story: (2009) http://www.gq.com/story/nfl-players-brain-dementia-study-memory-concussions http://www.gq.com/story/nfl-players-brain-dementia-study-mem... (2015) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/concussion-prevention-football-safety-brain-injury-bennet-omalu-nfl-will-smith https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/concussion-p...
shas3 9y ago
The evolution of boxing presents a template of how football will go. Boxing today is a rather fringe sport in school. Few parents put their kids in boxing enthusiastically. Similarly, boxing matches, although viewed by millions, are rather fringe in being grand and occasional pay-per-views. Football will go the same way, but perhaps much more slowly, given the cultural inertia. I firmly believe that these things evolve, rather than abruptly change. Whether it evolves into a safer form of the game or to become marginalized is hard to say. Already many parents are hesitant in putting their kids in football in school.
- learc83 9y ago
  >Already many parents are hesitant in putting their kids in football in school. That is what will change football. In 10 years or so, high schools will have a hard time fielding a football team. Then a few years after that colleges won't have them, and so on.
phkahler 9y ago
>> Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country? Those are personal decisions and I don't think anybody should tell you how you should feel. It's your choice how to feel about it. You get to define your own morality and live with your choices in the context of your own beliefs.
georgeott 9y ago
I think weight limits would be a good start. Do we really need 400 pound linemen? I also think game play would improve with lighter, faster players.
- greedo 9y ago
  The average starting NFL lineman was around 325 in 2016[1]. The game does like lighter and faster players, but often that's a tradeoff against durability. 1. http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-nfls-starting-offensive-linemen-weigh-over-50000-pounds-combined-100616 http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-nfls-starting-offensi...
cr0sh 9y ago
A couple or so year ago, Budweiser (or one of the other large beer companies) had a display at the grocery store I frequented depicting the concept of large anthropomorphic robots playing the game. Imagine high-speed, large scale robo-soccer - for football. I am not a sports fan in general, but I would watch the hell out of such a game if it could be created. Especially if everything was fully autonomous, and teams were made of machines created by smaller groups or individuals. Basically, take today's "robot soccer" or "robot sumo" competitors, mix them up with the "robot combat" people, throw in a dash (a small dash) of SRL - and give them a way to organize and build the teams... The robots wouldn't need to be anthropomorphic - specialized vehicle-style robots would work just as well. It'd have the spectacle of football wrapped up with robot combat and demolition derby. There'd likely be fire, explosions, smoke, massive noise - it could become an insane spectacle. And - provided that the arena it is held in is constructed properly - no human injuries would occur. Ultimately, easier said than done, and I am certain the first few games wouldn't be that much fun to watch until the building teams or whatnot got the hang of how to build such machines. But if that could be gotten past - it might be something grand to see.
- Azkar 9y ago
  You should check out Rocket League.
  - camiller 9y ago
    Or the "so bad it's good" movie Robot Jox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Jox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Jox
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  We have battlebots. Besides watching robots playing soccer being boring, you're ignoring the fact that people PLAY sports for fun. The millions of people in intramural sports aren't doing it so they can entertain family.
ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
The thing with concussions is that it is definitely an injury football players used to simply play through, so any numbers on concussions that are more than >5 years old can't really be trusted. They should definitely remove kick off completely, since they almost have already. Any run back is almost a guaranteed full speed head to head collision. At least with most plays the tackle is made from a considerable angle (for running backs there is rarely time for each player to approach full speed, or to come off unblocked). Otherwise, I think it is what it is, just like people don't get up in arms about Boxing.
- tnecniv 9y ago
  > Otherwise, I think it is what it is, just like people don't get up in arms about Boxing. Doctors have warned about the long term health implications of boxing since the 50s, but nobody seems bothered by it. Boxing also isn't as popular as it used to be, so out of sight, out of mind I guess.
pishpash 9y ago
What's the big picture? In a few hundred years maybe this sport will look as unthinkable as gladiatorial games in Rome. That's certainly one possibility.
kelnos 9y ago
> Does that mean the NFL should shut down? Should they continue to operate as normal? Saying the NFL should shut down is debatable: at least there we have adults making decisions (which can, after more research is published, be informed decisions) about their health and life. However, if the incidence really is that high, at the very least high school football should be banned, or modified in such a way that the risk of head injury is diminished, if that's possible. > Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country? I wouldn't say you should feel bad. NFL players are consenting adults who are being compensated (to some degree, at least) for the risk. We can't say the same of third-world child labor.

by Azkar 9y ago

Splines 9y ago

> Can you make the game "more safe" without drastically changing the game? Any game played at this high of a speed, with this strong of players is going to have some inherent danger to it. I'm only a casual watcher of football, but I think it would be possible to change the game. My non-expert impression is that the game has evolved over the years (and I could certainly be wrong) and incentivizing players to avoid causing head trauma by penalties seems like the way forward (above and beyond current helmet-helmet collision rules). Maybe adding shock sensors to the helmets to objectively measure impacts is another thing they can do. It would be interesting to learn what they already do today wrt measuring the forces on the head's of players. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if the game changes. I would be satisfied watching them play the equivalent of flag football - high level strategy and athletic clutch plays can still occur with a safer game.

cjbprime 9y ago
I've read it may be the case that the head collisions at the snap at the start of every single play is causing CTE via microconcussions, not just the dramatic concussions you can see overtly. Also, teams practice more than they play. Practice causes concussions too, and penalties won't help.

nilved 9y ago

By this definition football is basically modern Gladiatorial combat.

phkahler 9y ago
>> By this definition football is basically modern Gladiatorial combat. Why would you have ever thought otherwise? Didn't you notice the coliseum looks like an ancient stadium? Football is very much a man-v-man battle and that's exactly why a lot of people like it.

geophile 9y ago

Yes, the NFL should shut down. Yes, it is worse than the 3rd world child labor scenario. The kid in the 3rd world probably has no other choices, and along with his peers, may actually be improving things for his society. Nicholas Kristof (of all people) pointed this out when it was found that someone documenting the horrible conditions at Foxconn fabricated melodramatic stories. (This was a big kerfuffle on This American Life a couple of years ago.) The football player, living in a 1st world country, has other options. It is criminal that the responsible adults (coaches, recruiters) don't point out that they are signing up for virtually guaranteed severe brain damage.

prostoalex 9y ago
The only reason you don't hear of NFL slump is that contracts between broadcast networks and the league are negotiated well into the future. TV cord cutting is on the rise, TV usage is down, having to compete with online and mobile time, ESPN figures drag down the entire Disney empire, ESPN is going through layoffs almost each month, seems like. When the time finally comes for cable networks to re-negotiate the deals, NFL numbers won't look as pretty. Which means lower expenses, higher consolidation, lower player salaries, etc. It won't disappear entirely, but will be just another sport like NASCAR or horse racing, reaching a rather narrow group of avid followers.
srj 9y ago
How is it fair to the people who want to sign up for it that you're making the decision for them? There's no social ill conferred on the greater public by their decision, what's the reason for meddling in their lives?
- mmmrtl 9y ago
  The general public shouldn't be interested in watching people give themselves brain damage for millions of dollars. Without the monetary incentive, people wouldn't be playing football at this level (or the high school and NCAA feeders), which sure looks like exploitation to me. If the NFL has known about the risks for years and continued with its business model, it should absolutely face lawsuits and financial ruin.

runT1ME 9y ago

Take the helmets off. Players would no longer run at each other head first, and be forced to grapple a bit more. Concussions are en extreme rarity in grappling/wrestling sports. They can still happen, but it's a freak accident rather than an inevitability each down.

dv_dt 9y ago
It would be interesting to study Rugby comparatively re: concussion.
- coob 9y ago
  Here's an interesting article on how Rugby is ignoring CTE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11857548/Rugby-uncovered-Game-still-has-head-in-sand-over-the-risks-of-brain-damage.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11857548/Rugby-u...
  - nicwest 9y ago
    There is a decent interview with Jamie Cudmore on the rugby dungeon where he talks pretty candidly about concussion issues: https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-22jamiecudmore https://www.acast.com/therugbydungeon/ep-22jamiecudmore
k3oni 9y ago
I second this, american football derived from rugby. Look at how rugby players tackle with no helmets and no padding. It really looks like adding the protective gear doesn't help the players as much as they were thinking.
- jackhack 9y ago
  I've heard the same argument applied to automobiles. Would people drive more safely/carefully/considerately if a metal spike were attached to the steering wheel rather than an airbag? I can't pretend to know the answer, but it's interesting in that behaviors definitely change if there are costs associated with the actions.

ceautery 9y ago

We could start by doing similar studies in other sports. Do rugby players get CTE as often? Can American football players retrain?

cjbprime 9y ago

> Does that mean the NFL should shut down? Probably not. > Should they continue to operate as normal? No. > Can you make the game "more safe" without drastically changing the game? Depends what you mean by drastic. Removing helmets from the game seems like one possibility, bringing it closer to rugby. I don't know if there have been CTE examinations of rugby players, but the intuition is that people won't collide heads at high acceleration on every single play if they're not wearing helmets. > Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Yes, I'd say so without changes. Malcolm Gladwell in 2009 wrote that watching football is starting to feel like watching dogfighting. It seemed ridiculous at the time and is not ridiculous now. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/10/19/offensive-play http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/10/19/offensive-play > Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country? Depends on the factory, I guess? Some of those jobs probably pay well relative to other options for those workers, even accounting for danger etc. In comparison, watching humans give each other brain damage because it's fun is harder to find potentially redeeming qualities for.

noxToken 9y ago
> Yes, I'd say so without changes. Malcolm Gladwell in 2009 wrote that watching football is starting to feel like watching dogfighting. It seemed ridiculous at the time and is not ridiculous now. But now the players know. It would be different if we kept the player locked underground with no contact to the outside world. The fact is that they're making the choice to play even though the risks have been outlined. I don't watch football. I follow stats (which is like watching without watching) though. I don't feel bad, because now they're adults making an informed decision.

stevenwoo 9y ago

Well, it's kind of like boxing or MMA in that the athletes are trading quality of life in the future for money now. Whether that is of value we currently leave to the athletes. But there's nothing that can be done according to Omalu, the guy who fought the NFL to make his findings public. If you are not familiar with the story: (2009) http://www.gq.com/story/nfl-players-brain-dementia-study-memory-concussions http://www.gq.com/story/nfl-players-brain-dementia-study-mem... (2015) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/concussion-prevention-football-safety-brain-injury-bennet-omalu-nfl-will-smith https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/28/concussion-p...

shas3 9y ago

The evolution of boxing presents a template of how football will go. Boxing today is a rather fringe sport in school. Few parents put their kids in boxing enthusiastically. Similarly, boxing matches, although viewed by millions, are rather fringe in being grand and occasional pay-per-views. Football will go the same way, but perhaps much more slowly, given the cultural inertia. I firmly believe that these things evolve, rather than abruptly change. Whether it evolves into a safer form of the game or to become marginalized is hard to say. Already many parents are hesitant in putting their kids in football in school.

learc83 9y ago
>Already many parents are hesitant in putting their kids in football in school. That is what will change football. In 10 years or so, high schools will have a hard time fielding a football team. Then a few years after that colleges won't have them, and so on.

phkahler 9y ago

>> Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country? Those are personal decisions and I don't think anybody should tell you how you should feel. It's your choice how to feel about it. You get to define your own morality and live with your choices in the context of your own beliefs.

georgeott 9y ago

I think weight limits would be a good start. Do we really need 400 pound linemen? I also think game play would improve with lighter, faster players.

greedo 9y ago
The average starting NFL lineman was around 325 in 2016[1]. The game does like lighter and faster players, but often that's a tradeoff against durability. 1. http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-nfls-starting-offensive-linemen-weigh-over-50000-pounds-combined-100616 http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/the-nfls-starting-offensi...

cr0sh 9y ago

A couple or so year ago, Budweiser (or one of the other large beer companies) had a display at the grocery store I frequented depicting the concept of large anthropomorphic robots playing the game. Imagine high-speed, large scale robo-soccer - for football. I am not a sports fan in general, but I would watch the hell out of such a game if it could be created. Especially if everything was fully autonomous, and teams were made of machines created by smaller groups or individuals. Basically, take today's "robot soccer" or "robot sumo" competitors, mix them up with the "robot combat" people, throw in a dash (a small dash) of SRL - and give them a way to organize and build the teams... The robots wouldn't need to be anthropomorphic - specialized vehicle-style robots would work just as well. It'd have the spectacle of football wrapped up with robot combat and demolition derby. There'd likely be fire, explosions, smoke, massive noise - it could become an insane spectacle. And - provided that the arena it is held in is constructed properly - no human injuries would occur. Ultimately, easier said than done, and I am certain the first few games wouldn't be that much fun to watch until the building teams or whatnot got the hang of how to build such machines. But if that could be gotten past - it might be something grand to see.

Azkar 9y ago
You should check out Rocket League.
- camiller 9y ago
  Or the "so bad it's good" movie Robot Jox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Jox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Jox
unethical_ban 9y ago
We have battlebots. Besides watching robots playing soccer being boring, you're ignoring the fact that people PLAY sports for fun. The millions of people in intramural sports aren't doing it so they can entertain family.

ApolloFortyNine 9y ago

The thing with concussions is that it is definitely an injury football players used to simply play through, so any numbers on concussions that are more than >5 years old can't really be trusted. They should definitely remove kick off completely, since they almost have already. Any run back is almost a guaranteed full speed head to head collision. At least with most plays the tackle is made from a considerable angle (for running backs there is rarely time for each player to approach full speed, or to come off unblocked). Otherwise, I think it is what it is, just like people don't get up in arms about Boxing.

tnecniv 9y ago
> Otherwise, I think it is what it is, just like people don't get up in arms about Boxing. Doctors have warned about the long term health implications of boxing since the 50s, but nobody seems bothered by it. Boxing also isn't as popular as it used to be, so out of sight, out of mind I guess.

pishpash 9y ago

What's the big picture? In a few hundred years maybe this sport will look as unthinkable as gladiatorial games in Rome. That's certainly one possibility.

kelnos 9y ago

> Does that mean the NFL should shut down? Should they continue to operate as normal? Saying the NFL should shut down is debatable: at least there we have adults making decisions (which can, after more research is published, be informed decisions) about their health and life. However, if the incidence really is that high, at the very least high school football should be banned, or modified in such a way that the risk of head injury is diminished, if that's possible. > Should I feel bad as a fan for watching football? Is it any worse than buying clothing made by child labor from a third world country? I wouldn't say you should feel bad. NFL players are consenting adults who are being compensated (to some degree, at least) for the risk. We can't say the same of third-world child labor.