9 ms·

Bitcoin swings as civil war looms

62 points by eclipse31 9y ago

LAMike 9y ago
Has anyone noticed a paradigm shift in the way Bitcoin and Ethereum are treated on HN?
- no_one_ever 9y ago
  Could you please further explain?
  - curiousgal 9y ago
    HN used to be way (more) hostile towards Bitcoin.
  - swiley 9y ago
    I feel like a few years ago there was some issue with etherium and it was generally considered to be inferior to bitcoin, I can't remember what that issue was now though.
  - ganoushoreilly 9y ago
    I think it's implying the argumentative state when currencies are brought up. There's a lot of emotions wrapped around all the nonsense of forks, the random thefts, and general new but somewhat difficult to understand technology. For most people it doesn't serve a purpose outside of what they're reading (I own a few bitcoin that I mined back in 09, but I'm never really compelled to use them for anything due to headaches and fees trying to spend them).
    - swiley 9y ago
      I've never quite understood the argument that bitcoin are difficult to spend. I have bought things with them and it's so much easier than credit cards! You open a wallet app, point your phone at your computer and tap yes, done. Credit cards you have to (optionally) make sure the site won't steal your number, go get your physical wallet, fill out a rather long form (that sometimes throws an error and makes you fill it out again) and then occasionally call the issuer because they decided someone might have stolen your card and won't let the transaction go through because it's big. Bitcoin has problems but spending UX for online transactions really isn't one of them.
      - sillysaurus3 9y ago
        None of your criticisms of credit cards seem valid. > Credit cards you have to (optionally) make sure the site won't steal your number, Nope. If it's stolen, you get issued a new card and all the old transactions are refunded. > go get your physical wallet, fill out a rather long form Browser integration makes it easy to fill out these forms. I don't use it, but I've seen people who do. > and then occasionally call the issuer because they decided someone might have stolen your card and won't let the transaction go through because it's big. In my experience card companies let the transaction go through even if it's big. Then they call you. Mine sends me a text saying "Was this you? Type 1 for yes" and that's the end of it. I like that. It's a good thing.
      - yorwba 9y ago
        I guess the payment wouldn't go so smooth if the bitcoins are sitting in 8-year-old files. You'd have to add to your description the steps necessary to install that wallet app and import the private keys. Whatever happens when you "point your phone at your computer" (OCR?, QR code?) might also not be fully reliable, so add the hassle of troubleshooting that. I can see how someone might not bother with it, if they have no real need to. Personally, I'm relatively sure I will never use bitcoin, because I pay my groceries with cash and my rent per wire transfer, and other than that I buy stuff off the internet maybe twice a year, so entering my credit card details isn't quite that annoying. I realize my spending habits are somewhat unusual, though.
      - shallot_router 9y ago
        Here's what I ran into the other day. I go to a website and click a "Pay with Bitcoin" button and am taken to a page where I have to send X BTC to Y address. Ok, easy to copy and paste them, I've done this plenty of times in the past. And then I see "don't pay directly from an exchange!" because they take longer to send transactions or don't pay enough in transaction fees or something. I used a regular local wallet for a time but have been using Coinbase as my wallet ever since, and now that won't work. I've normally been able to pay via Coinbase very easily. Let's just download the blockchain... 120 GB? Well, better grab an old external hard drive... 26 hours to sync, despite my 200 Mbps cable connection? I guess I'm not paying with Bitcoin today. I can definitely see how paying with Bitcoin could be annoying to an average consumer nowadays.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Nope. Bitcoin has always had detractors and fanatics. You're likely observing selection bias.
- Retric 9y ago
  Not really, IMO mostly people just got tired of talking about them. Which is a bad canary in the coal mine, for something backed up by hype. Unless we eventually see TV commercials pumping up gold I mean bitcoin.
  - yellowapple 9y ago
    inb4 Rosland Capital opens a cryptocurrency exchange.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    There are TV commercials pumping up gold, from the companies that sell gold (like Goldline).
- JustAnotherPat 9y ago
  Depends on how fast the threads get linked to on r/ethtrader and r/bitcoin
- cloakandswagger 9y ago
  Nope, it still seems as hostile as ever. Every top voted comment on a thread concerning crypto will be people cheering its inevitable demise and mocking its naive supporters. I can only imagine it's a mixture of jealousy and sour grapes from missing out on crypto's rise, but it feels strange that a forum dedicated to tech is so angry and dismissive towards a really interesting new technology.
  - and0 9y ago
    I think it's incredibly interesting and the the tech / concept is extremely impressive. (We still don't even know who thought this up, do we?) That being said, I'm one of the people who have always mocked bitcoin. There are so many obvious problems with it, and some of the people in the cult built around it lack a hilarious amount of self-awareness. Congrats to those who speculated successfully regardless. I'm not salty about people who jumped on $AMD over a year ago, or any tulips throughout history.
    - rothbardrand 9y ago
      Consider that those "obvious problems" (which you don't name) may be misunderstandings on your part, of the technology, or how economics works on a global scale. Bitcoin is a very well designed crypto-economic system. It took smart work from people with backgrounds and understanding in both. It's easy to mock because it's different from the standard quo and Statists seem to think that Only government can do money properly (which is kinda funny when you think about it) and so the criticism of bitcoin that I've seen has never been very good.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are extremely interesting, for sure. Technologically, they're interesting because they're a clever solution to difficult problems, and there's a lot to learn from how they work. Sociologically, they're interesting because they seem to attract a lot of "move fast and break things" people to an area where that attitude works poorly, and the result is an ongoing stream of scams, heists, and other failures. There's a lot to learn here in terms of what not to do. The technological side seems to be fairly well understood at this point, but the sociological side constantly comes up with new ways to be ridiculous, so naturally the discussion now focuses on this.
- wslh 9y ago
  Completely. I also see more coverage in media and I think it it related. Also, beyond the hype there are technical issues that are important to discuss here.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
This article is delusional if it thinks the swings have anything to do with the bitcoin civil war. Bitcoin has always been volatile, and will continue to be volatile. It's a gambler's currency. People always try to assign a reason to things. We don't like accepting that there just aren't any reasons. But as someone who has seen bitcoin go up and down and back again over years, there really isn't a reason for it besides "people decided to buy or sell." And those people aren't operating with logic. It's speculation. People were saying the exact same things about Silk Road. If Silk Road closes, bitcoin will go down! Nope, didn't happen.
- cloakandswagger 9y ago
  I think you're underestimating just how big a deal the split was. It could have lead to Bitcoin being split into two distinct currencies, and this was happening on a very short and defined timeline (July 21st and August). The swings absolutely were caused by anxiety/relief around this event.
  - revmoo 9y ago
    Not a chance. The volatility surrounding this event was at or below the normal levels of BTC volatility.
- Torai 9y ago
  It just looks like market manipulation (which is not illegal in an unregulated market). Pump the price up to make huge profits shorting on the next big dump (August 1?), then buy a lot and pump it again. This was written 2 days ago: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-manipulate-bitcoin-market-ian-m-worrall https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-manipulate-bitcoin-market...
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  I've been watching this closely, and the price seems to be driven by the Segwit2x signaling rate. We're close to the %80 activation and when it looked like we weren't going to make it we saw a decline, and when hash power switched signaling and the price recovered. The reason the hash power signaling is not so stable right now has a technical reason-- Bip-91 is rushed, the Segwit2x proposal was rather late in the game and this is a system which, by design and prudence, should not be changing with quick untested commits.
VikingCoder 9y ago
It's almost like it should be two different blockchain crypto currencies, with different goals, but possibly very similar implementations. /sigh
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
kanzure 9y ago
duuuupes, feed me dupes https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14758587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14758587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14788663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14788663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14809259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14809259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14812445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14812445
brink 9y ago
I guess "civil war" sounds a lot more interesting than a hard fork, an unlikely split and people trying to capitalize on the drama.

62 points by eclipse31 9y ago

LAMike 9y ago

Has anyone noticed a paradigm shift in the way Bitcoin and Ethereum are treated on HN?

no_one_ever 9y ago
Could you please further explain?
- curiousgal 9y ago
  HN used to be way (more) hostile towards Bitcoin.
- swiley 9y ago
  I feel like a few years ago there was some issue with etherium and it was generally considered to be inferior to bitcoin, I can't remember what that issue was now though.
- ganoushoreilly 9y ago
  I think it's implying the argumentative state when currencies are brought up. There's a lot of emotions wrapped around all the nonsense of forks, the random thefts, and general new but somewhat difficult to understand technology. For most people it doesn't serve a purpose outside of what they're reading (I own a few bitcoin that I mined back in 09, but I'm never really compelled to use them for anything due to headaches and fees trying to spend them).
  - swiley 9y ago
    I've never quite understood the argument that bitcoin are difficult to spend. I have bought things with them and it's so much easier than credit cards! You open a wallet app, point your phone at your computer and tap yes, done. Credit cards you have to (optionally) make sure the site won't steal your number, go get your physical wallet, fill out a rather long form (that sometimes throws an error and makes you fill it out again) and then occasionally call the issuer because they decided someone might have stolen your card and won't let the transaction go through because it's big. Bitcoin has problems but spending UX for online transactions really isn't one of them.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      None of your criticisms of credit cards seem valid. > Credit cards you have to (optionally) make sure the site won't steal your number, Nope. If it's stolen, you get issued a new card and all the old transactions are refunded. > go get your physical wallet, fill out a rather long form Browser integration makes it easy to fill out these forms. I don't use it, but I've seen people who do. > and then occasionally call the issuer because they decided someone might have stolen your card and won't let the transaction go through because it's big. In my experience card companies let the transaction go through even if it's big. Then they call you. Mine sends me a text saying "Was this you? Type 1 for yes" and that's the end of it. I like that. It's a good thing.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      I guess the payment wouldn't go so smooth if the bitcoins are sitting in 8-year-old files. You'd have to add to your description the steps necessary to install that wallet app and import the private keys. Whatever happens when you "point your phone at your computer" (OCR?, QR code?) might also not be fully reliable, so add the hassle of troubleshooting that. I can see how someone might not bother with it, if they have no real need to. Personally, I'm relatively sure I will never use bitcoin, because I pay my groceries with cash and my rent per wire transfer, and other than that I buy stuff off the internet maybe twice a year, so entering my credit card details isn't quite that annoying. I realize my spending habits are somewhat unusual, though.
    - shallot_router 9y ago
      Here's what I ran into the other day. I go to a website and click a "Pay with Bitcoin" button and am taken to a page where I have to send X BTC to Y address. Ok, easy to copy and paste them, I've done this plenty of times in the past. And then I see "don't pay directly from an exchange!" because they take longer to send transactions or don't pay enough in transaction fees or something. I used a regular local wallet for a time but have been using Coinbase as my wallet ever since, and now that won't work. I've normally been able to pay via Coinbase very easily. Let's just download the blockchain... 120 GB? Well, better grab an old external hard drive... 26 hours to sync, despite my 200 Mbps cable connection? I guess I'm not paying with Bitcoin today. I can definitely see how paying with Bitcoin could be annoying to an average consumer nowadays.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sillysaurus3 9y ago
Nope. Bitcoin has always had detractors and fanatics. You're likely observing selection bias.
Retric 9y ago
Not really, IMO mostly people just got tired of talking about them. Which is a bad canary in the coal mine, for something backed up by hype. Unless we eventually see TV commercials pumping up gold I mean bitcoin.
- yellowapple 9y ago
  inb4 Rosland Capital opens a cryptocurrency exchange.
- leereeves 9y ago
  There are TV commercials pumping up gold, from the companies that sell gold (like Goldline).
JustAnotherPat 9y ago
Depends on how fast the threads get linked to on r/ethtrader and r/bitcoin
cloakandswagger 9y ago
Nope, it still seems as hostile as ever. Every top voted comment on a thread concerning crypto will be people cheering its inevitable demise and mocking its naive supporters. I can only imagine it's a mixture of jealousy and sour grapes from missing out on crypto's rise, but it feels strange that a forum dedicated to tech is so angry and dismissive towards a really interesting new technology.
- and0 9y ago
  I think it's incredibly interesting and the the tech / concept is extremely impressive. (We still don't even know who thought this up, do we?) That being said, I'm one of the people who have always mocked bitcoin. There are so many obvious problems with it, and some of the people in the cult built around it lack a hilarious amount of self-awareness. Congrats to those who speculated successfully regardless. I'm not salty about people who jumped on $AMD over a year ago, or any tulips throughout history.
  - rothbardrand 9y ago
    Consider that those "obvious problems" (which you don't name) may be misunderstandings on your part, of the technology, or how economics works on a global scale. Bitcoin is a very well designed crypto-economic system. It took smart work from people with backgrounds and understanding in both. It's easy to mock because it's different from the standard quo and Statists seem to think that Only government can do money properly (which is kinda funny when you think about it) and so the criticism of bitcoin that I've seen has never been very good.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are extremely interesting, for sure. Technologically, they're interesting because they're a clever solution to difficult problems, and there's a lot to learn from how they work. Sociologically, they're interesting because they seem to attract a lot of "move fast and break things" people to an area where that attitude works poorly, and the result is an ongoing stream of scams, heists, and other failures. There's a lot to learn here in terms of what not to do. The technological side seems to be fairly well understood at this point, but the sociological side constantly comes up with new ways to be ridiculous, so naturally the discussion now focuses on this.
wslh 9y ago
Completely. I also see more coverage in media and I think it it related. Also, beyond the hype there are technical issues that are important to discuss here.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

This article is delusional if it thinks the swings have anything to do with the bitcoin civil war. Bitcoin has always been volatile, and will continue to be volatile. It's a gambler's currency. People always try to assign a reason to things. We don't like accepting that there just aren't any reasons. But as someone who has seen bitcoin go up and down and back again over years, there really isn't a reason for it besides "people decided to buy or sell." And those people aren't operating with logic. It's speculation. People were saying the exact same things about Silk Road. If Silk Road closes, bitcoin will go down! Nope, didn't happen.

cloakandswagger 9y ago
I think you're underestimating just how big a deal the split was. It could have lead to Bitcoin being split into two distinct currencies, and this was happening on a very short and defined timeline (July 21st and August). The swings absolutely were caused by anxiety/relief around this event.
- revmoo 9y ago
  Not a chance. The volatility surrounding this event was at or below the normal levels of BTC volatility.
Torai 9y ago
It just looks like market manipulation (which is not illegal in an unregulated market). Pump the price up to make huge profits shorting on the next big dump (August 1?), then buy a lot and pump it again. This was written 2 days ago: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-manipulate-bitcoin-market-ian-m-worrall https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-manipulate-bitcoin-market...
rothbardrand 9y ago
I've been watching this closely, and the price seems to be driven by the Segwit2x signaling rate. We're close to the %80 activation and when it looked like we weren't going to make it we saw a decline, and when hash power switched signaling and the price recovered. The reason the hash power signaling is not so stable right now has a technical reason-- Bip-91 is rushed, the Segwit2x proposal was rather late in the game and this is a system which, by design and prudence, should not be changing with quick untested commits.

VikingCoder 9y ago

It's almost like it should be two different blockchain crypto currencies, with different goals, but possibly very similar implementations. /sigh

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

kanzure 9y ago

duuuupes, feed me dupes https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14758587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14758587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14788663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14788663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14809259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14809259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14812445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14812445

brink 9y ago

I guess "civil war" sounds a lot more interesting than a hard fork, an unlikely split and people trying to capitalize on the drama.