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Somebody please hire me before I take a job in weapon development
Hello fellow HNers.
I am posting this from a throw-away account. I tried to anonymize most of the details here; I will of course give my full details to serious people who will contact me privately.
I'm a Python developer, and I live in a famously aggressive little country. I'm currently being offered to work in a big governmental firm responsible for weapon development for our military. Military power is a very high priority for my country, thus a lot of resources are given to these kind of companies, and thus I'm being offered very good salary and benefits for this job.
I don't really want to work there.
Incidentally, I'm not a pacifist, but I would really prefer to avoid working with these kind of people. Also I wouldn't want to do all the security checks and be exposed to secret military information, etc.
Will anyone here be interested of hiring me? I'd be interested in working as a telecommuting freelancer.
About myself: I'm in my twenties, I've been programming Python for a few years, and I'm the developer of two open-source projects, whose code you could inspect freely when you'll contact me privately. I have some experience with Django and I can maintain a LAMP stack. I am also interested in scientific computing.
Here's my anonymous contact email: anonymous.python.guy@gmail.com
Thanks.
- kurtosis 16y agoThe standard advice I've heard is: Work for defense companies to learn the technology, and then leave to transfer this technology toward peaceful (and often lucrative) applications. Swords into Ploughshares.
- levesque 16y agoNot all knowledge obtained by working in a defense organism would be transferable. You get probably less useful real-world knowledge by working there rather than any other place.
- erikpukinskis 16y agoOK, who installed the laser turrets in the server room?
- Qz 16y agoI would disagree with that -- as just one example, modern chemotherapy is derived from the development of mustard gas circa World War I.
- python_guy 16y agoThese companies are really set up to prevent people from doing this.
- ephermata 16y agoSpeaking for the U.S. context only: once you have a security clearance, which will become necessary at some point for defence work, it becomes difficult to move out to non-classified work. On one hand, the pool of people with clearances is smaller than the general labor pool, so you can have a higher salary & benefits, therefore it's more attractive to stay at that kind of work. On the other hand, prospective employers outside defence likely do not have clearances and so cannot learn anything about what you did - this makes it difficult to leverage your experience when seeking to move to a new job. I don't work in defence. That is just what I've heard from people who do as one of the reasons why it's hard to "rotate in, rotate out."
- anamax 16y ago> Speaking for the U.S. context only: once you have a security clearance, which will become necessary at some point for defence work, it becomes difficult to move out to non-classified work. Huh? None of my friends with clearances seem to have that problem. Do they have the "wrong" clearances?
- varaon 16y agoNot sure that it would make a difference whether your employer has a security clearance or not. If you're following "need-to-know" doctrine, then you still wouldn't tell them.
- Kadin 16y agoYou are correct (IME) in your first point, about the difficulty of moving away from the high salary and benefits associated with cleared jobs, but not really on the second one. Doing secure work means you can't take any confidential information with you when you leave, and it might slightly limit what you can talk about, but it doesn't mean you can't say anything about the work you did. You can still talk about your role and skillset, usually about the languages and technologies (and COTS products) used. Many government IT projects mandate security-cleared developers because the systems touch classified information, but that doesn't mean that the systems themselves (their existence, basic design, etc.) are classified. There's really no difference between having a project like that on your resume, and any other commercial-sector project that's internal use only. If you're working or considering working on a clearance-required project, it's not unreasonable to ask to talk with the security officer beforehand to clear up exactly what you'll be able to put on your resume and discuss after the fact ... and price yourself accordingly.
- MichaelSalib 16y agoMy experience in the aerospace/defense industry suggests that this isn't really practical. Organizations that make aircraft and rockets and weapons tend to be incredibly conservative: they don't really innovate much. They have incredibly risk averse institutional cultures...no one wants to be the guy that decided to launch Challenger. I know of one aerospace company that occasionally has its rockets explode on the launchpad because they use battery designs from the 1970s that are known to explode with fairly high probability. They could easily get much cheaper much more reliable batteries with more modern designs but they don't because the exploding batteries "have flight heritage". This particular aerospace company is considered agile and nimble and innovative compared to its competitors.
- Estragon 16y agoYou should hire me instead of him. I've been using python to do statistics and machine learning in a bioinformatics context for the last 15 years. Plus, if you don't, I'll kill this puppy. Isn't he cute? You wouldn't want to be responsible for his death, would you?
- python_guy 16y agoYour criticism is right, this is a sensationalist appeal. Do you think I shouldn't have made it?
- Entlin 16y agoI think ones personal ethics are non-negotionable. Once I have set my limits, I will never work in a field that is off limits. Additionally, I believe you can always get a job without dropping your personal ethics. The market is huge - just keep looking. I once had an offer like you do. I declined, and I'm happy now I did. Good luck!
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- Estragon 16y agoDo you think my satire contains a moral judgment? (I hear you like to answer questions with questions over there.)
- python_guy 16y agoTouche. Your satire was pretty funny.
- keefe 16y agoIf it works, nothing wrong with playing sensationalist games and since you anonymized yourself, well kudos for having balls to take a shot. I personally can't imagine it being particularly effective vs just talking about your skills, but if you went this far did you post it on craigslist in SF, LA, NYC as well?
- nearestneighbor 16y agoI'm trying to think of "famously aggressive" and "little", and all I can come up with is one of them Koreas.
- jtaby 16y agoNot Israel?
- CapitalistCartr 16y agoOr Venezuela. But most likely Israel.
- maukdaddy 16y agoIsrael?
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- tiki12revolt 16y agoNot necessary. It depends on your perspective. Israel, the Koreas, Cuba (from an American perspective), etc...
- mcotton 16y agoIsrael?
- aidenn0 16y ago
- melling 16y agoI've never worked in defense. Can someone explain what "these kind of people" means?
- levesque 16y agoThese kind of projects would be military equipment (weapons, trucks, armors) efficiency, troops efficiency (either training techniques or planning algorithms/strategies) and other retarded stuff like that.
- melling 16y agoPeople?
- m0nastic 16y agoI don't know exactly what the poster meant by "these people", but my own experience having worked at a defense contractor was that the facility I was at (which designed and made missles), all of the managers were upset that there wasn't presently a war going on. I suspect that the past few years have been better for morale there. Every day they would have meetings going over global hot spots and assess whether there was any chance that the U.S. would have to intervene, and therefore purchase more armaments from them. This was not an objective, collective discussion, but a pleading. I found that at least at that particular company, by and large, "these kind of people" were shitbags. I will say, that contrasted with work I've done with other defense contractors in the ensuing years, they are not all uniform.
- krschultz 16y agoStrange, since most of the US big money spending is mostly unrelated to the wars. They didn't start the F-22 when the war in Iraq broke out, the new aircraft carriers are rolling out to replace ones that are getting old, not ones that got sunk ... etc.
- m0nastic 16y agoThat's less true of "perishable" items like munitions. Generally, the US Government has a set stockpile (which may increase or decrease based on policy changes, but is usually static). This company made guided missiles (very expensive, medium to long range), and needed the existing stockpile to be depleted (which is a nice way of saying that they needed things to be blown up). Other divisions of the company I'm sure were working on different kinds of projects, the contracts for which weren't as contingent on being in a skirmish. There's a difference between having a contract to develop and design an F-22 (which thankfully occurs before they are needed in warfare) and to actually build replacement F-22's (such as when they are shot down).
- mkramlich 16y agoHow's Israel this time of year?
- lenni 16y agoHmm, I was thinking about 'aggressive little country' too but the penny didn't drop until this post.
- w1ntermute 16y agoIsrael was my first thought too.
- ImFatYoureFat 16y agoDon't think it's Israel, he would have already spent time in the military if he was Israeli.
- tkahn6 16y agoIf he's in his twenties, he already done with his mandatory military service (apart from being in the reserves). He would be doing this as a civilian just like an American citizen can get a job at the CIA out of college.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- rms 16y agoOr there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi or a psychiatrist willing to give you the right kind of mental health diagnosis
- ImFatYoureFat 16y agoThe down voting is really strange. If he is Israeli, and in his mid twenties then he has already served in the IDF, likely in a CS capacity. Also if he was Sherut Leumi, then I wouldn't think he would apply for a military contract job in the first place. Furthermore, its especially difficult for people with highly desirable backgrounds like CS or engineering to get Sherut approval. My only point was that an Israeli in their mid twenties has already served in the military and if they have, or plan to get a degree in CS, they have served in the military in a capacity relating to CS or engineering. Of course it's totally possible that I'm wrong and he is from Israel. Just out of curiosity, anyone have any explanations of the down voting? Don't really mind, I just find it kind of bizarre.
- person 16y agoif someone gives you a better offer, can i have your defense job? sounds pretty cushy to me
- python_guy 16y agoIt is pretty cushy, and you don't need to wait for me to abandon it. But you must be a native of my country and a reasonably able Python programmer. If you are, send me a mail.
- dotBen 16y agowell what is your country? If this is a throw-away account I can't understand why you can't disclose that?
- drivingmenuts 16y agoHere's a question: how do we know you haven't already been co-opted by your military establishment?
- isamuel 16y agoI wouldn't want to hire someone who was willing to compromise his ethics simply for a "very good salary and benefits."
- biotech 16y agoI don't know the whole story, but I have known very good, moral people who worked for companies that they didn't completely agree with ethically because they put their family or their health first. Ethics isn't always so simple. If "a very good salary and benefits" is the difference between being very sick or getting that surgery you need, or if it's the difference between sending your kids to a good school or a bad one.... Let's just say that I wouldn't be so quick to judge.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- skinnymuch 16y agoI completely agree with you and don't think you can just call a person 'bad' for working at a 'bad' company. But technically speaking, a lot, if not most, of the 'very good, moral' people you described don't leave the companies even when they are in a more stable and comfortable situation.
- python_guy 16y agoI agree. But, as I said, it's not an ethics issue for me. I just want to avoid the military culture.
- dotBen 16y agoNot sure what country you live in but in US and UK it wouldn't be legal to discriminate on a job applicant because they previously worked for in a military-related employer. I know what you're saying, but as big proponent for anti-discrimination in the work place I fear statements like yours settle in the backs of people's minds and then re-appear the day they find themselves in a hiring position.
- hifastius 16y ago
- ohashi 16y agoIs it the UK?
- jarek 16y agoAggressive maybe, but by which standards is the UK "little"?
- sjf 16y agoArea? Population? It's certainly not large.
- adbge 16y agoI thought the same thing, by what standards would the UK be considered _large?_ I'm from the states, though, so I tend to think of most European countries as small.
- jarek 16y agoBy world standards it's not large, but among its immediate neighbours it's one of the largest countries: third by population in the EU and one of the larger by area. I'd think places like Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, or even Austria would get called little much before UK, to say nothing of the smaller countries like Iceland or Luxembourg. I don't think many people in the UK would describe it as little either.
- ImFatYoureFat 16y agoGuys, it obvious he's from the Vatican.
- varjag 16y agoOK, below is my honest, if a bit blunt, opinion. You're not a rocket scientist, your skillset as described won't make a difference for Israel (?) military power. Either go for it and enjoy your pay, or if you have your principles, don't go for it and try finding a boring civilian job as all other non-rocket-scientists do . But the drama, it's not there.
- dublinclontarf 16y agoHeh, when he said an aggressive little country the first thought that came to my mind was Georga.
- paylesworth 16y agoReally? My first thought was Switzerland.
- loewenskind 16y agoI assumed it was the US and "little" was sarcastic.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- dRother 16y agoGood move. I had a girlfriend whose father worked designing guidance systems for rockets. He couldn't speak a word about his job to his family, and it was apparent that his conscience struggled with the fact that his engineering handiwork was only good for killing people.
- slavak 16y agoI have a problem believing this is about Israel since: a) Defense companies in Israel _do not_ offer "very good salary." In fact, it is a generally accepted fact that they universally offer lower salaries than civilian companies. This is offset somewhat by the benefits that stem from being a large and influential enterprise as well as the inherent governmental bureaucracy. b) Engineers at Israeli defense firms don't tend to be particularly militaristic or in any way "these kind of people," and I know quite a few...
- kimfuh 16y agoMaybe Taiwan, Korea or Singapore.
- lowglow 16y agoHire me. I have no morals.
- azzret 16y agoPython and Django for missile control? For real? import sys, missile_lib destination = sys.argv[1] controller = missile_lib.Missile_control() controller.fire(destination)
- justin_vanw 16y agoSo, in order to do the 'right' thing, we have to make you a counter offer? Is that how this works? Everyone! Mail me money so I don't have to enable murder!
- sac 16y ago2 things first, you sound like a german during WW2. (hold the anger) I mean really, your saying you don't want to get paid to kill jews, but you want to get paid well for that skill set and no one else in your market will pay you what your 'worth 2nd /later