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Microdosing: People taking LSD with breakfast
- petters 9y agoHere is someone making it a little more rigorous: https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing N=1 though.
- 2bitencryption 9y agonot sure if science, lunacy, or both going with "both"
- weq 9y agoits science without the morality threaded through it. Psychedelics were demonized because of racism and fear, nothing else. They have been used for millennia for therapeutic benefits - look at every native culture with shamen and you will find them.
- busterarm 9y agoI actually have to agree with the parent comment here. I think the message at both ends of the spectrum is bogus. I've taken my fair share of psychedelics and while I've had good times on them, I've also had some of the most miserable moments in my life on them. The only instances I can think of in my life where I can say without a doubt that I would never want to repeat. They're certainly not for everybody and there's nothing therapeutic about giving them to people in a fragile mental/emotional state. Here be Dragons.
- andybak 9y ago> while I've had good times on them, I've also had some of the most miserable moments in my life Funnily enough I have similar sentiments about my travels in the developing world. Best of times and worst of times. But I would still probably encourage anyone with the slightest curiosity to do that kind of travelling. I'm not sure how far I'd push this metaphor but the general point is that sometimes an experience is worth it even if it has some fairly unpleasant aspects.
- roystonvassey 9y agoThe analogy ends with the highs and lows. Bad experiences happen during traveling, you feel angry/cheated and move on. It's a tale you can retell in parties years later. You are out of that place. Bad experiences during a trip, though, are frightful because, at the back of your mind, you know that what you experienced was all in your head. Like the parent commenter said, here be demons and here is nowhere else but your head. Hard to imagine getting away from that.
- gcoda 9y agoSome people find value in a bad trip. It is usually showing you something your conscience afraid to deal with, you might be better off after confronting reasons why you had those "most miserable moments", they might not be as bad in retrospective
- omarchowdhury 9y agoAll bad trips are good trips in hindsight, since you came out them alive and... sane. And hopefully learned something very deep about yourself.
- metaphorm 9y ago> they're certainly not for everybody and there's nothing therapeutic about giving them to people in a fragile mental/emotional state. you're right, they might not be for everybody. there are good reasons to believe that people with a genetic risk factor for bipolar disorder or schizophrenia shouldn't take them because it exacerbates that existing risk factor. besides that group though, it's less obvious who should or should not take them. I actually think psychedelics have amazing potential specifically FOR people with a fragile mental/emotional state (example: PTSD patients) when used as part of a holistic regime of therapy and counseling as well as taking psychedelics under the appropriate circumstances. The shamanic traditions of many indigenous cultures emphasize exactly this. They aren't using these things as party drugs. Strong medicine, used with spiritual guidance and community support. That is a working model.
- Banthum 9y agoBehavior leads to outcomes. If you emulate a people, you'll end up with the outcomes of those people. Looking at the outcomes of shamanistic native cultures (e.g. a total lack of influence, power, freedom, equality, or prosperity), I'll stick to sobriety and industry, thanks.
- kahrkunne 9y agoI'm gonna need a source on your claim that psychedelics attract foreign invaders with smallpox
- Banthum 9y agoWell, you obviously know the history. You can see as well as I that cultures with regular psychedelic use tend to be incapable of defending themselves from even very casual incursions by foreign powers. This isn't limited to the Americas.
- metaphorm 9y agoI can't for the life of me understand what your point is supposed to be. You're making an observation that the particular civilization that led a campaign of violent global colonization was one that had a hostile attitude towards psychedelics. Yes, that is a correct observation. What kind of generalization are you trying to make from that though?
- kahrkunne 9y agoI'm pretty sure that a nomadic lifestyle, massive technological disadvantage and vulnerability to pathogens played a bigger role in that than psychedelics, but feel free to prove me wrong if you have a credible source on what you are implying.
- filoeleven 9y agoAnd cultures without regular psychedelic use tend to initiate casual incursions into foreign lands; practice enslavement, genocide, overpopulation and overuse of resources and industrial pollution; and maintain strict hierarchies that benefit the few at the expense of the many. If such a dominator culture, indeed now the dominant culture, were to stop repressing the use of psychedelics, there seems to be little danger of it being taken over--it's already all but quashed the competition. It would with any luck help to curb the excesses that are the cause of so much trouble, and help to provide the will to use the fantastic tools we have made to better ends.
- tim333 9y ago>demonized because of racism and fear, nothing else They can also have adverse side effects like most drugs. I know a few people who have had problems.
- saimiam 9y agoCan you elaborate?
- metaphorm 9y agodepends on which drug you're talking about? Psilocybin and LSD are remarkably non-toxic. There is no known overdose level for either of those, as far as I know, and I've read quite a lot of the research. That's not to say that a huge dose would be psychologically safe or comfortable, just that I don't know of anyone suffering bodily harm as the primary action of taking either psilocybin or LSD.
- jungletek 9y agoI think they're alluding to people using such substances recreationally and triggering latent and often undiagnosed mental issues.
- smohare 9y agoI'm not one to suggest psychedelics are immoral, but an appeal to antiquity fallacy is hardly warranted. Especially one as fraught with pseudoscience and magical thinking as shamanism.
- benevol 9y agoWhile I consider microdosing an interesting concept, nobody should miss out on a well planned experience with a normal dose, in your favorite spot in nature, with carefully selected music, in perfect weather conditions. Also, read James Fadiman's classic [0] beforehand and "test before you ingest". [0] http://www.psychedelicexplorersguide.com http://www.psychedelicexplorersguide.com
- interfixus 9y agoPlease don't dictate what 'nobody' should 'miss out' on. I'm all for the fredom of anyone to ingest whatever strange concoctions take their fancy. Reciprocally, don't lean on those of us who are happy enough about the way our brains work without artificial flavouring.
- nefitty 9y agoJust because your radio came tuned to one station doesn't mean you gotta keep it that way.
- kyledrake 9y agoMine just keeps playing Limp Bizkit on loop. Am I using it correctly?
- emjoes1 9y agonow that's a bad trip lol
- interfixus 9y agoWhich part in "I'm all for the fredom of anyone to ingest whatever strange concoctions take their fancy" do you not understand?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- andy_ppp 9y agoI think microdosing LSD is 100% placebo and that we should stick to rationalism and science. Taking small doses of hallucinogens without clear proof and long term research is your choice, however, proving it has value seems incredibly difficult as there are so many biases involved.
- andybak 9y agoFairly similar to the difficulties that surround proving the efficacy of antidepressants. > I think microdosing LSD is 100% placebo and that we should stick to rationalism and science. This is an interesting sentence because the first half and the second half of it directly contradict each other. I too believe in sticking to rationalism and science which surely forces me to disregard your opening statement?
- andy_ppp 9y agoYes it's badly worded, I should say I believe it's nearly impossible to draw conclusions due to the placebo effects, complexity of people's brains and the differences between subjects. I actually am pretty skeptical about anti-depressants personally and they seem very addictive/dependence inducing. I suppose it's better than people killing themselves but the way they are handed out seems almost abusive. I have never seen double blind IQ tests with microdosed LSD done.
- beat 9y agoWhile hardly a "double blind IQ test", or a microdose, Ken Kesey described an interesting lab experience. Back when there was still academic research being done on psychedelics, he was part of an experiment group. One of the experiments being done on him was measuring his sense of time (the "time dilation" often reported by users). They would ask him to estimate one minute passing by, while they timed it. But before they did the time test, they took his pulse, and wrote the results where he could see them. So when they asked him to time one minute, he simply counted his pulse - presumably hitting his estimate more accurately than a "sober" person could. I think this particular incident says a lot about the difficulty of doing scientific research around perception, for something that so radically alters perception.
- erokar 9y agoWhile I think LSD is a very interesting drug that can give people valuable insights and improve their (and thereby also others) lives, I would not do microdosing on a daily basis myself. LSD increases serotonin significantly, and it's plausible that some of the well-being effect of microdosing is caused by this. The problem is that the brain tends to down-regulate its own production of a neurotransmitter when it is induced by a drug over time. Since the brain is plastic it will probably up-regulate the serotonin production once the microdosing is stopped, but there is a theoretical risk that neurotransmitter production and/or functioning is permanently changed.
- yellow_viper 9y agowouldn't tolerance make it pointless to do this everyday also? Seems once every 3 days would be more beneficial.
- frozenport 9y agoClaim is it's not just serotonin.
- amorphous_hn 9y agoNo, microdosing is different from outright tripping. The underlying stimulating effects of LSD don't go away
- beat 9y agoThis makes me think of a long time ago, when I was diagnosed with ADD as an adult. I started medicating with dexadrine, which really did work wonderfully. Changed my life. A couple of years later, I had the worst mental breakdown of my life. I was a wreck. Borderline suicidal. I'm amazed that I didn't lose my spouse or my job over it, and I did lose a number of friends. Quit taking dexadrine, and it cleared up. Serotonin imbalance is no laughing matter. I technically still have a prescription, but I haven't taken it in years. I've learned to just live with the issues the ADD causes. On the subject of LSD... personally, I think LSD is a wonderful invention with enormous therapeutic potential. Back when I was just a bum kid in a college town, I probably tripped at least 50 times. I learned a lot about myself and the world, and don't regret a moment of it. With that in context, I find the research into microdosing really fascinating. I can easily imagine the benefits. But that serotonin thing. I'd want to know more about that.
- draugadrotten 9y ago"Some people use microdosing ... arguing it helps with their mental health problems." Well, there you have it. Self-medication for metal health issues. Advocating self-medication for mental health issues is like recommending people to self-medicate with painkillers to stop that pain, instead of getting proper medical diagnosis and treatment.
- notjack 9y agoThis presumes proper medical diagnosis and treatment are readily available.
- herbst 9y agoNot saying you are wrong. But i thread my depression with occasional drug use (next to other things like travel) which works perfectly well. Instead of taking all the pills that doctors wanted to give me. A psychedelic experience every year or so really keeps my happy self functioning.
- vldx 9y agoCare to elaborate how travel helps you combating depression?
- herbst 9y agoGuess i put that to generalised. But instead of having my yearly depression i spent half a year in SEA. But for me it also contains the flexibility and new experiences that I seeked out in life. Also living between people with all kind of unique problems made me more happy with my general life
- jnordwick 9y agoIf travelling helps your depression, you probably don't have depression.
- herbst 9y ago
- lamby 9y agoThere's a good "Reply All" episode on this https://gimletmedia.com/episode/44-shine-on-you-crazy-goldman/ https://gimletmedia.com/episode/44-shine-on-you-crazy-goldma...
- bshimmin 9y agoThere is, however, a further danger to microdosing - the risk of taking too much. You don't say! I consume the BBC News online fairly compulsively as my go-to news source, but sometimes it really is pretty mind-numbing (no pun intended).
- benevol 9y ago> the risk of taking too much. The risk being, one can actually discover something really important.
- ziikutv 9y agoRisk being some people go on them and commit suicide and some people experience psychosis? Please don't downplay shit, if it works for you it is great but its not for everyone.
- jungletek 9y agoI think the incidence rate of that is quite low compared to the amount of 'happy customers'. I suspect there are plenty of people that would suggest that you're fear-mongering at worst, and at best seemingly letting a rather rare incident distort your message. Consider the opposite to your 'don't downplay shit' perspective: 'overblowing shit' can cause issues too. Best to respectfully educate of the risks, and yet ultimately understand that everyone makes their own choice, complete with consequences.
- namlem 9y agoMore like being distracted and unproductive all day. Tripping is great when that's what you're trying to do, but it would be quite awful if you had to be at work the whole time.
- mr_sturd 9y agoGiven that active doses are at a µg scale, what sort of mass constitutes "microdosing"?
- Shengbo 9y agoRoughly anywhere between 5 and 25 micrograms. There's a very thin line between "i'm feeling good and i can get work done" and "that nail in the wall sure looks interesting, lets investigate its origins" as you approach the upper bound of that.
- mr_sturd 9y agoThanks, I imagine that could be quite a hit-and-miss game to play. I can't see black-market tabs of LSD containing an even distribution of the molecule, at that scale. One day you might feel nothing, then that nail might look very interesting the day after.
- benevol 9y agoThat's where liquid comes in. Dissolve your tab(s) in (pure!) water (or alcohol), then divide this liquid into as many parts as you need to get to your 10 or 15 micro-grams. But you'll learn all this when you do your own careful research, which anyone approaching this domain is supposed to do anyways.
- CodeWriter23 9y agoThe article mentions tabs being cut into 10 pieces. I imagine with street acid that means 9 days of placebo and 1 day of oh wow I'm trippin' at work.
- metaphorm 9y agoprobably not. acid on blotter paper was originally from acid in solution. the blotter is usually made by pre-measuring an amount of solution that contains the target dose (measured by titration), and then using the blotter to soak up all of the measured out solution. capillary action should lead to even distribution of active compounds throughout the blotter.
- Grue3 9y agoAlso known as, "homeopathy". Probably just as effective.
- benevol 9y agoAs far as I know, the concept of homeopathy works on an "information level" (I wouldn't be too surprised if quantum physics are involved), not on the molecular/material level (which microdosing still does).
- swerner 9y agoThe "information level" being the placebo effect. You feel it working because you think it's working.
- benevol 9y agoI don't know, could be. The strange thing however is that there have been cases where animals have shown clear reactions to such a treatment (which wouldn't make sense, given the fact that the "substance" was mixed into their food). Future will tell, I suppose.
- red75prime 9y agoA year ago today was a future.
- gattilorenz 9y agoPlacebo effect has been observed in animals too.
- bharath28 9y agoThis is one where I am fairly confident the future will not tell anything new. On a related note, watch James Randi swallow an entire bottle of Homeopathic sleeping pills in this talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/james_randi https://www.ted.com/talks/james_randi
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- stefek99 9y agoThis is the first time I've heard of microdosing: http://tim.blog/2015/03/21/james-fadiman/ http://tim.blog/2015/03/21/james-fadiman/ Recent book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MCQ783Q/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MCQ783Q/ - "A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life" Here is a very "hacker like" research: https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing https://www.gwern.net/LSD%20microdosing I'm so happy that LSD Microdosing is hitting maintream, it's no longer niche hippy stuff. ---- EDIT: I read some comments "I think" - have these people actually tried using it? That's a serious ignorance, but I'm not commenting on their posts to avoid adding points to a dogma...
- _a3w4 9y agoI wouldn't take LSD microdoses periodically. There is no evidence of either the safety nor the benefits of said usage. We wouldn't be in such a lacking situation if research wasn't halted due to draconian drug laws. Nowadays it seems that research is being done by organizations like MAPS. My advice is to wait until there is evidence of the utility of said usages. I know people will try whatever they can in order to improve or solve some problem in their lifes. From tDCS to a variety of nootropics, research chemicals, prescription, and illegal drugs. I'd rather not be a lab rat, but that's easy to say when there are no pressing issues. There are a lot of evidence-based ways to improve our lifes: Exercise, healthy diet, good sleep routine, CBT, mindfulness.. I'd rather do those.
- m-j-fox 9y agoMy question is about these Silicon Valley people who spend their days at work and nights in bed: how do they go about sourcing the inventory for their experiments? (Asking for a friend who doesn't want to frequent nightclubs nor attend burning man, but very much wants to try microdosing.)
- symlinkk 9y agoFrom drug marketplaces on Tor. Check out /r/DarkNetMarkets if you're interested.