9 ms·

Why are you so certain they are Russian?

by YooLi 9y ago

snowpanda 9y ago
It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Russia uses online trolling as a tool. It's widely documented. This use of trolling leaves Russia open to accusations even when they're not involved. For a well documented case: http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-tool-case-latvia-0 http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-...
  - paradite 9y ago
    Widely documented by "The NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence", the most obvious enemy of Russia? Human rights violations in the U.S. are also well documented by China: http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-report-on-terrible-u-s-human-rights-record/ http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-r...
    - doktrin 9y ago
      The US does legitimately have an imperfect human rights track record, and most Americans who follow the news would agree (while at the same time being aware of China's own hypocrisy in this matter) Likewise, Russia has a well documented history of sponsoring online propaganda campaigns, and most people who aren't delusional or paid shills would agree. Two negative things about two different countries can in fact both be based in truth. Weird.
      - zigzigzag 9y ago
        paradite is saying it's not well documented. It's poorly documented by people highly incentivised to lie. But hey, if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice.
        doktrin 9y ago
        > poorly documented Uh huh https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails-55900 https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-... https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.html https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.... https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice. Not true, but it would definitely take more than that hand-wavy uncertainty yarn you're trying to spin
        seppin 9y ago
        I honestly think HN is the target of some of these trolls as well.
        mistermann 9y ago
        A significant percentage of younger (as well as non-younger for that matter) people have practically no exposure to mainstream media, so naturally one should expect propaganda (from the various players) will be brought to online forums of all kinds.
        9y ago
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        It should be obvious that the USA is not a singular political whole. So why do we say "the Russians" and "the Chinese" as though they each form a political whole. I mean, we know the CIA gets up to some pretty nefarious shenanigans, quite possibly without the express approval of The Administration. It just seems like a lot of pots sitting around talking about how black the kettles are. Sure, some kettles are blacker than some pots.
  - rev 9y ago
    Well documented analysis of a corpus of comments on some Latvian sites, yes. Anything in 100+ pages serving as a proof of Kremlin connections with the "hybrid trolls" (gotta love the newspeak)? Not so much. I don't know whether Russians are xenophobic aggressive bastards or knights in shining armor exposing the wrongdoings of others, it's just that claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      > claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated. What? gamergate, /pol, /b, alt-right, the_donald, antifa use online trolling. In context, saying a state actor uses online trolling is an extremely conservative claim. I'm sure there's online trolling in favor of and sponsored by US, Chinese and Macedonian interests (to name a few) too - but Russia's actions are much better documented.
      - rev 9y ago
        Alacritous state actors more nimble at trolling than 4chan? You decide, I don't care. My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved - if you read into "Trolls from Olgino" reports carefully. US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" [0]. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/filling-americas-language-education-potholes/392876/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/fillin...
        doktrin 9y ago
        > My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved Disagree. There's no such thing as perfect certainty, but the only real question about Russian troll sponsorship is one of scale. https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" This is an interesting observation, but I think you either underestimate American resources, or overestimate the logistics of online influence manipulation campaigns. For illustration : there are about 1m fluent Russian speakers in the US, and about 4m fluent English speakers in Russia. Sure, it's a bigger talent pool : but both countries could rope in bilingual cyber propagandists by the thousands if they felt so inclined.
  - pdkl95 9y ago
    > Russia uses online trolling as a tool. So does JTRIG[1][2], and probably many other groups as well. Russia isn't the only suspect for this kind trolling. [1] https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ [2] https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/ https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/
- 1_2__3 9y ago
  Honestly I think appeals to emotion like this have no place in dispassionate conversations about international espionage.
- burkaman 9y ago
  This is a discussion about the Russian government, it doesn't really have much to do with Russian people in general.
  - M_Grey 9y ago
    That sentence is correct however you read it out.
    - noobermin 9y ago
      It is "discrimination" to be suspicious of state actors? Was Snowden performing discrimination in exposing the NSA's spying?
      - M_Grey 9y ago
        Did you reply to the correct person? I never said anything about discrimination, nor did the person I was replying to.
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        Prejudice and discrimination are close enough to synonyms. You shouldn't be confused by the word swap.
        M_Grey 9y ago
        ...But neither of us said Prejudice either!
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        "It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others." Is that not the comment you were calling correct? That's what "the person [you] replied to" was talking about, that use of the word prejudice.
kafkaesq 9y ago
FWIW Snowden speculates "Circumstantial evidence and conventional wisdom indicates Russian responsibility. Here's why that is significant" - https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/765514891813945344 https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/765514891813945344
- doktrin 9y ago
  That 13-point tweet series paints a surprisingly plausible picture. I'm looking forward to getting the full story in about 20 years time.
  - M_Grey 9y ago
    We'll be very lucky if in 20 years, the world is still so free and functional as it is now... and I'm not trying to talk up the state of the world today.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      I try to remain optimistic, because allows me to continue being largely complacent with and complicit in the slow decline of free and civil society. Slightly tongue in cheek, but only slightly.
- Natsu 9y ago
  It's weird, though. Sure, it could be some kind of tit-for-tat thing, but I wonder more about 3rd party 'allies' in the middle east who have more to gain by pitting the US against Russia. Then again, I'm sure that there are enough people and intelligence services in play to make everything confusing.

Why are you so certain they are Russian?

by YooLi 9y ago

Why are you so certain they are Russian?

It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others.

DanBC 9y ago
Russia uses online trolling as a tool. It's widely documented. This use of trolling leaves Russia open to accusations even when they're not involved. For a well documented case: http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-tool-case-latvia-0 http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-...
- paradite 9y ago
  Widely documented by "The NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence", the most obvious enemy of Russia? Human rights violations in the U.S. are also well documented by China: http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-report-on-terrible-u-s-human-rights-record/ http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-r...
  - doktrin 9y ago
    The US does legitimately have an imperfect human rights track record, and most Americans who follow the news would agree (while at the same time being aware of China's own hypocrisy in this matter) Likewise, Russia has a well documented history of sponsoring online propaganda campaigns, and most people who aren't delusional or paid shills would agree. Two negative things about two different countries can in fact both be based in truth. Weird.
    - zigzigzag 9y ago
      paradite is saying it's not well documented. It's poorly documented by people highly incentivised to lie. But hey, if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice.
      - doktrin 9y ago
        > poorly documented Uh huh https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails-55900 https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-... https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.html https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.... https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice. Not true, but it would definitely take more than that hand-wavy uncertainty yarn you're trying to spin
        seppin 9y ago
        I honestly think HN is the target of some of these trolls as well.
        mistermann 9y ago
        A significant percentage of younger (as well as non-younger for that matter) people have practically no exposure to mainstream media, so naturally one should expect propaganda (from the various players) will be brought to online forums of all kinds.
        9y ago
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      It should be obvious that the USA is not a singular political whole. So why do we say "the Russians" and "the Chinese" as though they each form a political whole. I mean, we know the CIA gets up to some pretty nefarious shenanigans, quite possibly without the express approval of The Administration. It just seems like a lot of pots sitting around talking about how black the kettles are. Sure, some kettles are blacker than some pots.
- rev 9y ago
  Well documented analysis of a corpus of comments on some Latvian sites, yes. Anything in 100+ pages serving as a proof of Kremlin connections with the "hybrid trolls" (gotta love the newspeak)? Not so much. I don't know whether Russians are xenophobic aggressive bastards or knights in shining armor exposing the wrongdoings of others, it's just that claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated. What? gamergate, /pol, /b, alt-right, the_donald, antifa use online trolling. In context, saying a state actor uses online trolling is an extremely conservative claim. I'm sure there's online trolling in favor of and sponsored by US, Chinese and Macedonian interests (to name a few) too - but Russia's actions are much better documented.
    - rev 9y ago
      Alacritous state actors more nimble at trolling than 4chan? You decide, I don't care. My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved - if you read into "Trolls from Olgino" reports carefully. US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" [0]. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/filling-americas-language-education-potholes/392876/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/fillin...
      - doktrin 9y ago
        > My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved Disagree. There's no such thing as perfect certainty, but the only real question about Russian troll sponsorship is one of scale. https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" This is an interesting observation, but I think you either underestimate American resources, or overestimate the logistics of online influence manipulation campaigns. For illustration : there are about 1m fluent Russian speakers in the US, and about 4m fluent English speakers in Russia. Sure, it's a bigger talent pool : but both countries could rope in bilingual cyber propagandists by the thousands if they felt so inclined.
- pdkl95 9y ago
  > Russia uses online trolling as a tool. So does JTRIG[1][2], and probably many other groups as well. Russia isn't the only suspect for this kind trolling. [1] https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ [2] https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/ https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/
1_2__3 9y ago
Honestly I think appeals to emotion like this have no place in dispassionate conversations about international espionage.
burkaman 9y ago
This is a discussion about the Russian government, it doesn't really have much to do with Russian people in general.
- M_Grey 9y ago
  That sentence is correct however you read it out.
  - noobermin 9y ago
    It is "discrimination" to be suspicious of state actors? Was Snowden performing discrimination in exposing the NSA's spying?
    - M_Grey 9y ago
      Did you reply to the correct person? I never said anything about discrimination, nor did the person I was replying to.
      - Dylan16807 9y ago
        Prejudice and discrimination are close enough to synonyms. You shouldn't be confused by the word swap.
        M_Grey 9y ago
        ...But neither of us said Prejudice either!
        Dylan16807 9y ago
        "It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others." Is that not the comment you were calling correct? That's what "the person [you] replied to" was talking about, that use of the word prejudice.

kafkaesq 9y ago

FWIW Snowden speculates "Circumstantial evidence and conventional wisdom indicates Russian responsibility. Here's why that is significant" - https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/765514891813945344 https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/765514891813945344

doktrin 9y ago
That 13-point tweet series paints a surprisingly plausible picture. I'm looking forward to getting the full story in about 20 years time.
- M_Grey 9y ago
  We'll be very lucky if in 20 years, the world is still so free and functional as it is now... and I'm not trying to talk up the state of the world today.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    I try to remain optimistic, because allows me to continue being largely complacent with and complicit in the slow decline of free and civil society. Slightly tongue in cheek, but only slightly.
Natsu 9y ago
It's weird, though. Sure, it could be some kind of tit-for-tat thing, but I wonder more about 3rd party 'allies' in the middle east who have more to gain by pitting the US against Russia. Then again, I'm sure that there are enough people and intelligence services in play to make everything confusing.