17 ms·

That's a really oppressive patriarchy we live in, when a single blog post with no evidence and only hearsay is enough to spike a massive protest and boycott...

by tnones 10y ago

tradersam 10y ago
From my understanding, Susan is well respected within the SV community, and obviously from Uber's response she struck a nerve. I understand what you're getting at, but I think you're ignoring a lot of context.
- lubesGordi 10y ago
  Maybe he is ignoring context, but I wouldn't assume that everyone who is deleting the app has it. His/her point stands.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    What was his point?
    - padraic7a 10y ago
      > tnones :That's a really oppressive patriarchy we live in, when a single blog post with no evidence and only hearsay is enough to spike a massive protest and boycott... > jonathankoren : What was his point? It's an insinuation that the patriarchy doesn't exist, or is toothless based on the fact that one woman's story sparked a protest against Uber. Which is of course a stupid point. One swallow doesn't make a summer, one exception doesn't disprove a rule and of course any complex system can have exceptions, contra tendencies and still have a dominant character. No one said that patriarchy works like a totalitarian state, crushing anything and anyone which doesn't adhere to a strict set of rules.
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        I don't ask the question, because I don't know the answer. I ask the question because I want them to say it.
jonathankoren 10y ago
What are you saying? That being upset that women are being sexually harassed at the workplace shows that women aren't being sexually harassed at the workplace, or that it isn't a big deal? Seriously dude. What are you trying to say? Let's not pretend that these allegations came like a bolt from the blue. They've been floating around Uber for years now. The only thing different here is that someone publically put their name on it.
- ultrahate 10y ago
  I've never once heard rumors like these until recently but I've noticed an uptick in people saying that there HAS been, when there hasn't been rumors to begin with.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    You don't have any close women engineer friends do you?
    - ultrahate 10y ago
      I lead a team of women doing computational pharmaceutical research. 12 women and 3 males, and 2 female undergrads and 2 male undergrads. But hey, your narrative is that I'm out of touch with women because I'm not a woman so how could I possibly know, and I wouldn't want to ruin that little victory for you.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        I wouldn't call having a woman as a direct report a "close friend." The fact that you immediately reached for your employees as cover, makes me think that you don't have anyone else to use. I find it doubly absurd to think that your reports would talk to you about these things. First you're in a position of power over them, and we're dealing with a topic that goes hand in glove with abuses of power. Second on a personal note, you appear to be completely dismissive that any such claims could possibly have merit to them. Finally, look at your choice of name. I commend you for not going with "pussypuncher".
CPLX 10y ago
Just for reference when a credible person stands up and says "this happened to me" that's basically the definition of strong first-person evidence, and by definition not hearsay.
bonaldi 10y ago
I think you've just kicked yourself with your jerking knee. This is exactly the behaviour you'd expect under a really oppressive system: given a low-risk way to protest the oppression, people take it. Women and those sympathetic to the cause of equality can easily delete their accounts and take alternatives, so they do. Consider the contra: if this wasn't an oppressive system, if there weren't real causes for complaint, nobody would care-- and so nobody would delete their accounts over the story.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Exactly. If the normal channels worked we wouldn't be having this conversation.
- lubesGordi 10y ago
  Her claim is that Uber is an oppressive system and everyone just buys it at face value. Who has the jerking knee? I think it takes more work to assume ALL OF THE PEOPLE she was dealing with at Uber were in on some kind of sexist conspiracy against her than to think that maybe her perception's out of alignment. Even worse is to think that all these employees at uber hr can't recognize sexism and deal with it appropriately... it's her word against a bunch of people who I have no reason to think are unreasonable. Really, it's the assumption that Uber is an oppressive system from the get go that allows people to jump on her bandwagon and start deleting apps.
  - bonaldi 10y ago
    It's a question of who do you give the benefit of the doubt to? The woman who says "things are really bad at Uber for women" (and can point to plummeting diversity figures to back it up) or the company with the dodgy ethical history in many areas of employment law? And that's also what makes the protest so appealing. The protestors _don't have to justify themselves_ to you; they don't have to meet your arbitrary bar of "yes, this is now real enough for me to consider it as sexism, you are permitted to complain". They can just decide who they believe, and act accordingly. And have.
  - manicdee 10y ago
crispyambulance 10y ago
Even those of you that choose to be skeptical have to admit Uber has been developing a history of unethical, asshole behavior almost since its inception. The Fowler incident is the last straw for many people. What is happening right now is decidedly not simply the result of "a single blog post". There are other ways to get a taxi ride.
ansible 10y ago
Maybe read some of the other HN discussion on all this. I saw many comments corroborating the toxic culture at Uber, and none refuting it.
dang 10y ago
We've banned this account for arson. This kind of trolling and the flamewar you started are not acceptable on HN, and we've warned you about it before. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use the site as intended in the future. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13712596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13712596 and marked it off-topic.

That's a really oppressive patriarchy we live in, when a single blog post with no evidence and only hearsay is enough to spike a massive protest and boycott...

by tnones 10y ago

That's a really oppressive patriarchy we live in, when a single blog post with no evidence and only hearsay is enough to spike a massive protest and boycott...

tradersam 10y ago

From my understanding, Susan is well respected within the SV community, and obviously from Uber's response she struck a nerve. I understand what you're getting at, but I think you're ignoring a lot of context.

lubesGordi 10y ago
Maybe he is ignoring context, but I wouldn't assume that everyone who is deleting the app has it. His/her point stands.
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  What was his point?
  - padraic7a 10y ago
    > tnones :That's a really oppressive patriarchy we live in, when a single blog post with no evidence and only hearsay is enough to spike a massive protest and boycott... > jonathankoren : What was his point? It's an insinuation that the patriarchy doesn't exist, or is toothless based on the fact that one woman's story sparked a protest against Uber. Which is of course a stupid point. One swallow doesn't make a summer, one exception doesn't disprove a rule and of course any complex system can have exceptions, contra tendencies and still have a dominant character. No one said that patriarchy works like a totalitarian state, crushing anything and anyone which doesn't adhere to a strict set of rules.
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      I don't ask the question, because I don't know the answer. I ask the question because I want them to say it.

jonathankoren 10y ago

What are you saying? That being upset that women are being sexually harassed at the workplace shows that women aren't being sexually harassed at the workplace, or that it isn't a big deal? Seriously dude. What are you trying to say? Let's not pretend that these allegations came like a bolt from the blue. They've been floating around Uber for years now. The only thing different here is that someone publically put their name on it.

ultrahate 10y ago
I've never once heard rumors like these until recently but I've noticed an uptick in people saying that there HAS been, when there hasn't been rumors to begin with.
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  You don't have any close women engineer friends do you?
  - ultrahate 10y ago
    I lead a team of women doing computational pharmaceutical research. 12 women and 3 males, and 2 female undergrads and 2 male undergrads. But hey, your narrative is that I'm out of touch with women because I'm not a woman so how could I possibly know, and I wouldn't want to ruin that little victory for you.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      I wouldn't call having a woman as a direct report a "close friend." The fact that you immediately reached for your employees as cover, makes me think that you don't have anyone else to use. I find it doubly absurd to think that your reports would talk to you about these things. First you're in a position of power over them, and we're dealing with a topic that goes hand in glove with abuses of power. Second on a personal note, you appear to be completely dismissive that any such claims could possibly have merit to them. Finally, look at your choice of name. I commend you for not going with "pussypuncher".

CPLX 10y ago

Just for reference when a credible person stands up and says "this happened to me" that's basically the definition of strong first-person evidence, and by definition not hearsay.

bonaldi 10y ago

I think you've just kicked yourself with your jerking knee. This is exactly the behaviour you'd expect under a really oppressive system: given a low-risk way to protest the oppression, people take it. Women and those sympathetic to the cause of equality can easily delete their accounts and take alternatives, so they do. Consider the contra: if this wasn't an oppressive system, if there weren't real causes for complaint, nobody would care-- and so nobody would delete their accounts over the story.

pjc50 10y ago
Exactly. If the normal channels worked we wouldn't be having this conversation.
lubesGordi 10y ago
Her claim is that Uber is an oppressive system and everyone just buys it at face value. Who has the jerking knee? I think it takes more work to assume ALL OF THE PEOPLE she was dealing with at Uber were in on some kind of sexist conspiracy against her than to think that maybe her perception's out of alignment. Even worse is to think that all these employees at uber hr can't recognize sexism and deal with it appropriately... it's her word against a bunch of people who I have no reason to think are unreasonable. Really, it's the assumption that Uber is an oppressive system from the get go that allows people to jump on her bandwagon and start deleting apps.
- bonaldi 10y ago
  It's a question of who do you give the benefit of the doubt to? The woman who says "things are really bad at Uber for women" (and can point to plummeting diversity figures to back it up) or the company with the dodgy ethical history in many areas of employment law? And that's also what makes the protest so appealing. The protestors _don't have to justify themselves_ to you; they don't have to meet your arbitrary bar of "yes, this is now real enough for me to consider it as sexism, you are permitted to complain". They can just decide who they believe, and act accordingly. And have.
- manicdee 10y ago

crispyambulance 10y ago

Even those of you that choose to be skeptical have to admit Uber has been developing a history of unethical, asshole behavior almost since its inception. The Fowler incident is the last straw for many people. What is happening right now is decidedly not simply the result of "a single blog post". There are other ways to get a taxi ride.

ansible 10y ago

Maybe read some of the other HN discussion on all this. I saw many comments corroborating the toxic culture at Uber, and none refuting it.

dang 10y ago

We've banned this account for arson. This kind of trolling and the flamewar you started are not acceptable on HN, and we've warned you about it before. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use the site as intended in the future. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13712596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13712596 and marked it off-topic.