9 ms·

Solving the Alt-Tab Problem

204 points by omergertel 16y ago

pavel_lishin 16y ago
Anyone solve the "I have to scroll down to reach content" problem?
- what 16y ago
  It's even worse now. I've noticed a trend of starting articles/blog posts with giant, irrelevant/unnecessary pictures and the actual content ends up below the fold. I want to read the article not look at a picture.
  - TheBranca18 16y ago
    Maybe you should try Readability: http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ . I do notice the trend as well, and I think I have my resolution set pretty high compared to the average user. I wonder what they think.
    - what 16y ago
      Yeah, readability is good. The pictures mostly bother me because I do most of my browsing on an 11 inch monitor.
nickpp 16y ago
And how do you break such a "habit", once formed? Sorry, MRU is still the best. Pisses me off to no end that Firefox and Chrome, by default, do not use it anymore for their tabs...
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  I prefer browsers' tab switch system, because I always see my tabs. I do not always see my Cmd-Tab prompt, nor do I want to study it when tabbing around. And the "breaking" is just a question of implementation, not a big theoretical headache.
- mattw 16y ago
  For me, the most desirable method changes based on the context. In the context of Alt+Tab between applications, I agree that MRU works best. (Even though I get annoyed when I get a third application in the loop and accidentally tab to the wrong one, it seems like the "habit" business would just make the order of switching unpredictable, which would be even more annoying.) However, in applications like Firefox/Chrome, where the tabs are always visible, I'm the opposite from you: MRU behavior drives me absolutely bonkers. This is because the actual order of tab switching no longer matches the order implied by the visual position of the tabs. To my disgust, Visual Studio changed to this MRU behavior in (I think) 2005, and ever since then the Ctrl+Tab behavior has been useless to me, because even though the tab I want is right next to the active one, it might take six or seven switches to reach it. My memory of the order of the most recently used tabs while I'm coding is poor enough that the ordering might as well be random. If you wanted to keep the MRU method in this type of application, I think a solution is to automatically reorder the tabs. But VS at least doesn't do this...not sure about Firefox (it didn't originally, and I turned off the feature ASAP).
  - gmurphy 16y ago
    FWIW, your post (even including the VS behavior hate) is an accurate description why we don't do MRU tab switching in Chrome. It's a very common feature request[1], but we think we can do better and don't want to ship a middling stopgap. [1] Few people that request it continue to request it after trying it in a browser that supports it. Certainly the number is significantly below those that prefer tab-order switching.
    - nickpp 16y ago
      And the fact that you don't allow changing this behavior (not even with extensions, as Firefox does) is what keeps me away from Chrome...
  - skermes 16y ago
    In Visual Studio if you hold alt-Tab it'll pop up a quasimodal dialog that you can navigate through with arrow keys to select the tab you want, or hop into one of VS's panes (properties, ReSharper unit tests, etc). It's much less ideal than being able to just switch to the one you want, but if (like me) you often get stuck with too many tabs to cycle through easily it's at least a way out.
chaosmachine 16y ago
I use Spaces (OSX's virtual desktops) and have them on hotkeys. Command+1 gets my editor, Command+2 is browser, Command+3 is terminal, Command+4 is Photoshop. This setup eliminates the need for alt-tabbing. I just go directly to what I want.
- nnutter 16y ago
  This could be a good idea but there is also something to be said about not having to have an animation delaying the switch, etc. This solution is basically static order with manual (but pita) rearrangement.
  - chaosmachine 16y ago
    Rearrangement is pretty easy, just click+hold the titlebar of the app you want to move, and hotkey to the location where you want to drop it. I agree about the slide animation, though. I wish there was a way to disable that.
- jf 16y ago
  With Quicksilver, you can assign hotkeys to the applications themselves. Once I got this set up, I stopped using Alt+Tab.
  - gmurphy 16y ago
    Though it seems few people here are Windows users, Windows 7 lets you directly switch to/launch apps by using WinKey + [Num], where [Num] corresponds to the app's position in the dock. Chrome lets you do the same with tabs using Ctrl + Num.
    - nnutter 16y ago
      This behavior is also true on Chrome/Firefox for Mac (s/ctrl/cmd/). Safari differs in that they correspond to bookmarks on the bookmark bar; I actually find this to be my preference.
BoppreH 16y ago
Well, in Firefox I just move together the tabs I'm likely to switch between. This way I can use Ctrl + Tab and Ctrl + Shift + Tab to navigate between all tabs with a very specific and simple behavior. Yes, it takes a little time to move the tabs next to each other, but I think it's still better than breaking the "suspension of disbelief" when things go wrong. So, I think the solution for the Alt + Tab problem would be use MRU, but with a movable, always visible order: basically, let me drag the apps in the task bar.
- metachris 16y ago
  I always felt that left hand ctrl+tab is an awkward position for the fingers. I prefer Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown to switch, and like Chromes Shift + Ctrl + PageUp/Down to move tabs.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    It's not awkward if you remap caps lock to control.
    - RK 16y ago
      Or have a keyboard that places them "correctly".
  - BoppreH 16y ago
    I don't know about you, but my Tab is on one side of the keyboard and the PageUp/Down are on the other. Pressing this keys would require me to have both hands on the keyboard, which, after I uninstalled Vimperator, I don't have anymore.
Mongoose 16y ago
Pretty cool to see a design lead with knowledge of Markov models. Granted, someone on his team may have filled him in.
- uggedal 16y ago
  Aza Raskin is also a developer: http://code.google.com/p/pythonicjavascript/ http://code.google.com/p/pythonicjavascript/
  - zackattack 16y ago
    And he majored in math and physics at University of Chicago. lol
- klodolph 16y ago
  Knowledge of, but as a statistics geek, I see a lot of people (like this guy) throw around the term "hidden Markov model" when they don't know what "hidden" means in context. In this context, an ordinary Markov model would be more appropriate. A hidden Markov model denotes the existence of some dynamic parameter that the computer cannot directly observe, such as the user's current mood. Such a model would take into account transitions between "happy" and "angry" in addition to transitions between "Firefox" and "TextMate". These additional hidden variables are very useful in a wide variety of circumstances, but in this situation I suspect it would cause a combinatorial explosion of state space with little measurable benefit to the user.
nkurz 16y ago
Changing from a simple "most recently used" approach to a complex machine learning approach doesn't seem like a a good idea. Perhaps there would be some other small modifications that would keep the system simple and deterministic? For example, he mentions the problem that one gets into once one switches accidentally to the wrong app: once you've switched, it becomes the MRU when you try to switch back. Perhaps a rule that an application isn't added considered the MRU unless you interact with it in some way? So that if you switch to it but immediately switch away it is no different than hovering?
davidw 16y ago
Actually, as a holdout from my fvwm2 days, alt-tab raises a window, and alt-shift-tab lowers it.
ohwaitnvm 16y ago
I can understand the issue the author discusses with making tabbing MRU, but I think preference for this behavior differ between users. I have no trouble internalizing the order of the last few applications (or browser windows), thus MRU is the best for me. I'm likely to have several windows open, and it's fastest for me to be able to quickly bounce between a constantly-updating MRU list. Let's take the "Order of Application Opening" model: If, say, I had opened iTunes between a messenger program and a browser, and I were flipping between browsing and chatting, I would think that iTunes, being a background sort of application, would require me to remember to double-tab every time I wanted to bounce, requiring an extra button press and an internalization of that data instead. (As well, wouldn't the static list then require me to Alt-shift-tab every time I want to bounce backwards? I certainly could tab forward and wrap around if I had only those two applications open, but that's rarely the case, so it seems that a static ordering would only ever hinder me. Keep the static order to the taskbar/dock where it belongs!) Somewhat related: Something I've always wanted is the ability to navigate tabs in Firefox with CTRL+Left/Right-arrow, similar to the CTRL+# to get to a certain tab number. I looked around once, perhaps a year ago, to no avail, and haven't searched since. Anybody know of an add-on that adds this functionality? edit: BoppreH, in another post, mentions CTRL+[Shift]+Tab. I'm basically asking for this functionality, remapped to CTRL+Arrows (It's more comfortable this way, rather than isolating the button presses to one hand)
- rjprins 16y ago
  I would simply use autohotkey: ^{Right}::Send ^{Tab} ^{Left}::Send ^+{Tab} But then, that changes behavior for all applications, not just Firefox. There is a keyconfig extension for Firefox: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Keyconfig_extension http://kb.mozillazine.org/Keyconfig_extension you could try that. In Opera it is easy. Personally, I have this functionality under 'j' and 'k'.
- alanh 16y ago
  You can do this in OS X's preference pane. All my tabbed applications, even Terminal, now use Command+Option+Arrows.
rjprins 16y ago
This problem has frustrated me so much, here are things I do currently: - Ctrl-<number> focus on or start my regular applications (with an autohotkey script). That is 10 applications, more then enough. - Alt-Tab and Shift-Alt-Tab are replaced with Ctrl-; and Ctrl-h I've also tried a script that matches Ctrl-<number> with the programs that are in the taskbar. But found that as the order changes from time to time, I have to recheck what number to use.
wendroid 16y ago
Keep the order fixed but let me shuffle it manually
- greendestiny 16y ago
  For any common pairs of applications that means n/2 tabs on average to switch back and forth.
  - abstractbill 16y ago
    No, because you would manually shuffle common pairs of applications to be next to each other.
    - greendestiny 16y ago
      It would need to swap the common pairs on use. Which is basically this guys scheme except you manually define the pairs. Then again on windows you can alt-shift-tab, so that pretty much takes care of that anyway, if could just have the programs in consistent order.
TotlolRon 16y ago
Imagine it is not the tabs of the browser, but rather the knifes of a surgeon or the controls of an passenger airplane. Would adapting the machine to the human still be that desirable? Humans (still) learn faster and adapt better than machines. Over simplifying stuff for them may actually make things more complex.
mike-cardwell 16y ago
I'm not convinced by the proposed solution. You're changing an ordering method that's predictable to one that is unpredictable, from a human perspective.
GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
OMG YES YES YES! That is exactly perfectly described. When you are switching tabs the 3rd application messes things up. And what is worse is that what if the third application was an accident, now you have to re-alt-tab everything to the proper order. Its kind-of the same problem as when you send out emails. Why can't your email client remember that while there are 5 harrys in your address book, only Harry C is the one you send emails to and thus should be on the top of the auto completion list (FF3 betas missed this feature, FF3 has this now). The problem is: 1) If we do long-term computer learning, the person might judge that this feature is useless. A second person sitting at the computer screws the whole deal. 2) If we do a manual way with "rearrange" were still screwed. Too much work for temporary windows. 3) If the computer guesses wrong, were also screwed because now were stuck with an incorrect ordering. Consider this one: What if instead of trying to get alt-tab to work right, we try to get a consistent (press alt-tab x number of times to get from application foo to application bar) which will remain consistent no matter how many windows are open. So if you go from Eclipse -> Firefox, Eclipse -> Firefox -> Twitter, Firefox -> Eclipse, Firefox -> Eclipse -> Twitter, the user can now form a great habbit: If you are in FF, alt-tab = Eclipse, if you are in FF 2xalt-tab = twitter. Etc. I think a simple formula of Frequency of Use will help. If a habbit is frequent (person switches from application foo -> bar, even using non-alt-tab ways) we can use frequency of use to determine the ordering. Otherwise fall back to LRU (we can always ignore some random tabbing cases). Since a person will keep the recent "places" they been to in their head, it will feel intuitive for them.
- bluishgreen 16y ago
  "Why can't your email client remember that" - Gmail can figure this out, its a lab feature. Enable it. (See how I assumed you use gmail :), its probabilistic reasoning in action!)
  - steadicat 16y ago
    What's the lab extension called? I can't find it. The closest I could find was "Got the wrong Bob?", but that only warns you after you pick an unusual Bob. Sounds like a dirty hack which wants to parade as a clever feature. They should instead just fix the ordering of the auto-suggest dropdown.
scott_s 16y ago
The problem with using a learning model in an interface is making it smart enough to do its job, but dumb enough that the user can easily have a mental job of how it will act. (See the excellent article "Wolfram Alpha and Hubristic Interfaces" and HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=695582 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=695582) The more knobs and heuristics used in the interface, the harder its going to be for me to both guess what's going to happen, and know how to "fix" it when it guesses wrong. I think this is an interesting UI problem, because I encounter it frequently. But I also know how to remedy it easily.
- abstractbill 16y ago
  The problem with using a learning model in an interface is making it smart enough to do its job, but dumb enough that the user can easily have a mental job of how it will act. Yes, exactly. At the same time as the switcher program is trying to learn the user's common patterns, the user is also trying to learn how the switcher works. I can see that not ending very well! It would be particularly frustrating during the learning phase, when the switcher doesn't know the user's habits and so switches poorly, and at the same time the user is struggling to figure out what order the switcher will put things in.
dennisgorelik 16y ago
This change is almost impossible to predict and is breaking existing UI. Will not fly.
moe 16y ago
In ion3 I have a fairly efficient set of keyboard shortcuts for tab navigation: Alt+Left jumps to left tab. Alt+Shift+Left moves the current tab to the left. Same for all other directions. Oh and obviously tabs (windows) never change position on their own. This works much better than any other system I have used. Muscle memory is a beautiful, magical thing. It's a pity that all mainstream OS'es insist on deliberately making it impossible to take any advantage of it. MRU in alt-tab is the most idiotic idea since the modal dialog.
njharman 16y ago
My solution is to use mostly non-overlapping windows and add more (and bigger) monitors. Overlapping windows is a poor design forced on us back when we had 640x480 7" monitors. It's time to let it die. My tab usage in FF is less switching tabs, and much more opening lots of tabs and going through (and closing) them one by one. When I find my self switching tabs in FF too much I drag one tab into a new window.
- nick5768 16y ago
  This is my usage pattern as well, except I am using Chrome, It really highlights (one of) the benefits of having each tab in a separate process: it doesn't need to reload the page saving both time and the keeping the spot I have scrolled to on the page.
sliverstorm 16y ago
An idea just popped into my head- Tab+1, Tab+2... Allow manual ordering, or perhaps order the same way as the task bar, so a visual guide is always visible and the order does not change often.
trickjarrett 16y ago
I don't see how this will apply to browser tabs reliably. Are you doing it based on page url or domain? Page url has the obvious shortfall of being so rarely used for a long amount of time. It might be used for an hour, or perhaps a day, or in some rare cases where you do interact with a single url for a long period of time, but those cases will be few and far between. Domain seems too generic. If I'm on HN then I may flip to gmail frequently as I work through the day, but that doesn't mean that when I'm in Gmail I want to always tab to HN, perhaps it's to my blog, or work's admin section. I guess actually my issue is that he uses a single pair example. If I'm on HN, then gmail would probably be a likely tab target, but on Gmail, the options of targets greatly expands. HN would be at top because of recent use, but the other sites mentioned would also be likely targets. So then we suffer from the frequent order changing that was cited as a downfall of the MRU method. Am I wrong here?
DLWormwood 16y ago
Stuff like this is why I never learned to use modifier-tab in the first place. I've always been happy to use the slightly more expensive menu/palette selection idiom, since I can reliably communicate intent to the device without situational thinking. There really is a a degree of wasted effort in trying to make computers "read our minds." Trying too hard to make the common case easy can make even the 2nd common case too expensive to justify the savings.
prone 16y ago
(tabmix plus for FF(so that it remembers the order of my browsing)) + (alt(pc)/command(mac)-tab for apps) + (alt-~ for windows within apps) = maybe I'm missing something, but i have no problems. The solution proposed is too complicated for me to want.
- alanh 16y ago
  Missed the point. He’s talking about the order of apps (or tabs) when switching and optimizing the common case. Listing keystrokes adds nothing…
deleted 16y ago
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10ren 16y ago
Why not have more than one row of alt-tabs; use the cursor keys to select which one. But in fact I do this already, just without the visual representation, and it's confusing too: - alt-tab between firefox and vim - ctrl-6 within vim - ctrl-tab within firefox. BTW: you can rearrange tabs in firefox, and tab-mix (plugin) allows you to expt with customizing it in every weird way you can imagine, and some other ways too. A good test-bed for prototyping alt-tab solutions.
twopoint718 16y ago
The solution that (mostly) works for me is a combination of multiple virtual desktops (I use 9), and a tiling window manager (dwm). I usually don't exceed 2 or 3 windows per virtual desktop and the number of desktops is fixed. I have it wired into my fingers that Super+<n> takes me to desktop 'n', and then, typically I'm on the window I want. If not, it is a constant number of "Super+n" to get me to the window (because I don't exceed 3 windows per desktop). This works for me because I can remember the "place" where windows are, and it is usually one or two chords away.
- cool-RR 16y ago
  I do that too, it's pretty great. I'm on Windows so I use Dexpot, which is pretty okay.
  - dkersten 16y ago
    I hadn't heard of Dexpot - thanks for mentioning it. I've been looking for some decent tools for Windows and have been unsatisfied with others so far. I'll try Despot for a while and see how I like it. First impressions are good, though (at least out of the box) the fullscreen preview doesn't play nicely with multiple monitors :-(
  - jsulak 16y ago
    I'm a fan of VirtuaWin myself: http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/ http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/
  - ronnier 16y ago
    Clickable link: http://www.dexpot.de/index.php?lang=en http://www.dexpot.de/index.php?lang=en
- dkersten 16y ago
  I do the same, only instead of dwm, I use musca. And I have 11 virtual desktops assigned to Super+<1 through 0, and the key left of 1>. I also always use the same virtual desktops for certain tasks, so finding windows is easy: firefox? its in the web browsing desktops: 7 and 8! Pidgin? Thats desktop 9, etc etc. Finally, switching between windows within a single desktop is a simple matter of changing focus in a direction by using Super+<cursor keys> (I can resize and swap by using Super+Shift+<cursor keys> and Super+Alt+<cursor keys>). I can also cycle through windows in one frame (Super+c), but its not often I have more than one window in a frame (since I normally have either one fullscreen window in a desktop or i have two to four windows tiled), but when I do, its normally only one, so cycling is more of a "toggle between windows" for me. Super, being the "windows key", is a great key to use for window management. Windows key is for windows management is easy to explain to people ;-)
cturner 16y ago
This is a classic example of the design tradeoff that directly pits new users against power users. MRU is a simple, solid solution. Like many powerful tools, it takes some learning, and is then dependable. The alternative suggested here is a very complicated solution that power users will hate because it's unpredictable. You’ve been using alt-tab to bounce back-and-forth ... tab. What happens? Because of your habit, you expect it to go to your web browser, but because the last used application was your Twitter client, that’s where it switches. Experienced users will handle this by repopulating the cycle when they switch. In this case alt+tab, release, alt+tab, alt+tab, release, alt+tab.
- kscaldef 16y ago
  I guess I'd consider myself an "experienced alt-tab user", and I have this frustration on a regular basis. Yes, as you say, I can manually reorder the apps, but it annoys me to have to do so.
  - yason 16y ago
    Same here. I've solved the problem by not using any of this alt-tab behaviour. I have a suboptimal usage pattern that's still more intuitive than alt-tab. I've bound alt-tab and ctrl-tab to raise/lower window. While I do use four virtual desktops to group windows of similar interest, I generally just hide the frontmost window when I want to switch. This keeps the cycle static and I can do most things by using keyboard only. I rarely have more than 3-4 windows on a single desktop so I've kind of manually grouped the desired applications together already. If I want to break the cycle and switch directly to a specific window, I just point my mouse to it and use the keyboard to raise it front.
- bh3 16y ago
  I agree with this. While I don't find the current tab system particularly wonderful - back when I used arch linux I think I just used ratpoison /w windows mapped to numbers, this solution means that the user would need to either understand the current mode the task switching program is in at any given time or actually interpret the order of the programs. Yes, it minimizes key-strokes between the most used windows, but it also means that each window might have a connection and behavior that could change at any time. It might work, but I'm sure there are better solutions.
tel 16y ago
It saddens me to see Aza proud of dropping out of "3/4 of the schools he attended" as his title bar proclaims. It's one thing to note that a lot of people drop out of schools to seek their passions, but I never think of the dropping out as being the moment of pride.
- zackattack 16y ago
  Your loyalty should be to yourself, and your sadness comes from within. "Finishing what you start" is not virtuous. Mining what you need and then redirecting your attention is a smarter approach.
  - tel 16y ago
    Questions of loyalty aside, you're trying too hard to be profound. I'm using sympathy, an interesting human emotion, to make commentary, not dredging up personal strife or attempting directly to change Aza's life and purpose. Also, I still have to disagree with marketing dropping out 3 times so blithely. Opinions may differ, but as it stands I could interpret that to mean he's had 3 semesters at different colleges and the a degree from a community college. Without even critiquing that course of action, it certainly doesn't seem to convey the same message Aza undoubtedly wants to share. "I've attended four colleges to learn what I use today" is closer to useful, though still weak when you're talking about such easily misunderstood life choices. It invites questioning, discusses the positive mentality that might lead to those decisions, and doesn't sound like a Business Week fluff piece. 98% of people who've had a successful life have dropped out of college; isn't that surprising and almost certainly causal?
deleted 16y ago
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jsulak 16y ago
I'm on Windows, and I've rolled my own solution that uses incremental search, sort of like Emacs ido-mode buffer switching. http://bitbucket.org/jasulak/switcheroo/wiki/Home http://bitbucket.org/jasulak/switcheroo/wiki/Home Not for everyone, but I like it.
- techiferous 16y ago
  I'm on a Mac and I also rolled my own solution. I hard-coded my most frequently used applications to function keys. It's a great alternative to having multiple monitors (because I'm a nomad freelance developer and do not have a desk). Here are the scripts: http://techiferous.com/2009/12/streamlining-your-workflow-with-applescript/ http://techiferous.com/2009/12/streamlining-your-workflow-wi...
- hugothefrog 16y ago
  Thanks for the pointer. I was looking for something just like this. It seems to install and work just fine on Win Server 2008 64bit, for reference :)
  - jsulak 16y ago
    Glad you like it. Thanks for the info.
avk 16y ago
Was anyone else hoping for a discussion of how or why browsers almost completely ignore MRU for alt-tab? Only Opera supports cycling through tabs in both MRU and tab order (configurable).
- ryne 16y ago
  If you enable browser.ctrlTab.previews in Firefox's about:config panel you can get MRU tab-switching with thumbnail previews.
gabrielroth 16y ago
I'm surprised to see so much skepticism on this thread. When I read the article, I was delighted to see my own experience described so accurately. It's the second failure that's really galling. It made me wonder what it would take to implement something like this on OS X (in terms of hooking into the OS, rather than in terms of the heuristics). Since the application Witch (http://manytricks.com/witch/ http://manytricks.com/witch/) can be used as a replacement for the built-in App Switcher, it must be possible ...
vog 16y ago
What about simply using two commands? As the article says, there are two use cases which are hard to combine, so why not separating them? For instance, use Alt+Tab to jump to you latest used application, and use Ctrl+Rightarrow to go to the next app in order. Plus, you get an obvious way to go to the previous app in order: Ctrl+Leftarrow.
nevinera 16y ago
In xmonad (and I'd assume most other tilers), there is not only a fixed tabbing order, it is the visual order. I am almost unable to use alt-tab on a more standard window manager now, because it doesn't behave sensibly; it requires you to keep an in-memory ordering on your applications to get to them quickly. A static order that isn't obvious is just as bad as a dynamic one.
mattmaroon 16y ago
Windows 7 solves this quite elegantly by just showing you small previews which you tab through. It takes away the element of (unwanted) surprise.
- RevRal 16y ago
  If anyone wants something like this in XP, there's Microsoft Powertoys Alt-Tab Replacement.
- akshaye 16y ago
  But it still takes the attention back to the computer.
aneth 16y ago
I agree with the problem description, but the solution is terrible. It adds unpredictability to the interface, which is worse than simple badness. I'd suggest having new alternative to Alt-Tab that has static positions (reorderable for the power user.)
resdirector 16y ago
What a misleading title! I was all excited that he'd actually solved the problem, and I could download something. As Toby says to Will in an episode of the West Wing: "don't come to me with half a thing and not be able to - you know, after you've walked me to the brink..."
TomasSedovic 16y ago
Windows 7 got pretty close to solving this problem. Winkey+Num makes the n-th window on the taskbar active. Since you can modify the order of the taskbar icons, this solves the spatial memory vs. fast switching between two windows. Winkey+1 for Firefox, Winkey+2 for Twitter, Winkey+3 for something else. This combined with Alt+tab that cycles in the same taskbar order (as opposed to MRU) seems like the holy grail to me. The problem is that this would break the existing expectations of Alt+tab, which is why I fear it won't happen.
Hexstream 16y ago
I don't understand why you couldn't just let the user optionally specify such pairings manually instead of trying to infer it in an unreliable way. It's not like you regularly use dozens of different apps which would benefit from a pairing like that. If the user frequently wants to switch between the text editor and the browser, just let him specify so directly.

204 points by omergertel 16y ago

pavel_lishin 16y ago

Anyone solve the "I have to scroll down to reach content" problem?

what 16y ago
It's even worse now. I've noticed a trend of starting articles/blog posts with giant, irrelevant/unnecessary pictures and the actual content ends up below the fold. I want to read the article not look at a picture.
- TheBranca18 16y ago
  Maybe you should try Readability: http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ . I do notice the trend as well, and I think I have my resolution set pretty high compared to the average user. I wonder what they think.
  - what 16y ago
    Yeah, readability is good. The pictures mostly bother me because I do most of my browsing on an 11 inch monitor.

nickpp 16y ago

And how do you break such a "habit", once formed? Sorry, MRU is still the best. Pisses me off to no end that Firefox and Chrome, by default, do not use it anymore for their tabs...

pavel_lishin 16y ago
I prefer browsers' tab switch system, because I always see my tabs. I do not always see my Cmd-Tab prompt, nor do I want to study it when tabbing around. And the "breaking" is just a question of implementation, not a big theoretical headache.
mattw 16y ago
For me, the most desirable method changes based on the context. In the context of Alt+Tab between applications, I agree that MRU works best. (Even though I get annoyed when I get a third application in the loop and accidentally tab to the wrong one, it seems like the "habit" business would just make the order of switching unpredictable, which would be even more annoying.) However, in applications like Firefox/Chrome, where the tabs are always visible, I'm the opposite from you: MRU behavior drives me absolutely bonkers. This is because the actual order of tab switching no longer matches the order implied by the visual position of the tabs. To my disgust, Visual Studio changed to this MRU behavior in (I think) 2005, and ever since then the Ctrl+Tab behavior has been useless to me, because even though the tab I want is right next to the active one, it might take six or seven switches to reach it. My memory of the order of the most recently used tabs while I'm coding is poor enough that the ordering might as well be random. If you wanted to keep the MRU method in this type of application, I think a solution is to automatically reorder the tabs. But VS at least doesn't do this...not sure about Firefox (it didn't originally, and I turned off the feature ASAP).
- gmurphy 16y ago
  FWIW, your post (even including the VS behavior hate) is an accurate description why we don't do MRU tab switching in Chrome. It's a very common feature request[1], but we think we can do better and don't want to ship a middling stopgap. [1] Few people that request it continue to request it after trying it in a browser that supports it. Certainly the number is significantly below those that prefer tab-order switching.
  - nickpp 16y ago
    And the fact that you don't allow changing this behavior (not even with extensions, as Firefox does) is what keeps me away from Chrome...
- skermes 16y ago
  In Visual Studio if you hold alt-Tab it'll pop up a quasimodal dialog that you can navigate through with arrow keys to select the tab you want, or hop into one of VS's panes (properties, ReSharper unit tests, etc). It's much less ideal than being able to just switch to the one you want, but if (like me) you often get stuck with too many tabs to cycle through easily it's at least a way out.

chaosmachine 16y ago

I use Spaces (OSX's virtual desktops) and have them on hotkeys. Command+1 gets my editor, Command+2 is browser, Command+3 is terminal, Command+4 is Photoshop. This setup eliminates the need for alt-tabbing. I just go directly to what I want.

nnutter 16y ago
This could be a good idea but there is also something to be said about not having to have an animation delaying the switch, etc. This solution is basically static order with manual (but pita) rearrangement.
- chaosmachine 16y ago
  Rearrangement is pretty easy, just click+hold the titlebar of the app you want to move, and hotkey to the location where you want to drop it. I agree about the slide animation, though. I wish there was a way to disable that.
jf 16y ago
With Quicksilver, you can assign hotkeys to the applications themselves. Once I got this set up, I stopped using Alt+Tab.
- gmurphy 16y ago
  Though it seems few people here are Windows users, Windows 7 lets you directly switch to/launch apps by using WinKey + [Num], where [Num] corresponds to the app's position in the dock. Chrome lets you do the same with tabs using Ctrl + Num.
  - nnutter 16y ago
    This behavior is also true on Chrome/Firefox for Mac (s/ctrl/cmd/). Safari differs in that they correspond to bookmarks on the bookmark bar; I actually find this to be my preference.

BoppreH 16y ago

Well, in Firefox I just move together the tabs I'm likely to switch between. This way I can use Ctrl + Tab and Ctrl + Shift + Tab to navigate between all tabs with a very specific and simple behavior. Yes, it takes a little time to move the tabs next to each other, but I think it's still better than breaking the "suspension of disbelief" when things go wrong. So, I think the solution for the Alt + Tab problem would be use MRU, but with a movable, always visible order: basically, let me drag the apps in the task bar.

metachris 16y ago
I always felt that left hand ctrl+tab is an awkward position for the fingers. I prefer Ctrl + PageUp/PageDown to switch, and like Chromes Shift + Ctrl + PageUp/Down to move tabs.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  It's not awkward if you remap caps lock to control.
  - RK 16y ago
    Or have a keyboard that places them "correctly".
- BoppreH 16y ago
  I don't know about you, but my Tab is on one side of the keyboard and the PageUp/Down are on the other. Pressing this keys would require me to have both hands on the keyboard, which, after I uninstalled Vimperator, I don't have anymore.

Mongoose 16y ago

Pretty cool to see a design lead with knowledge of Markov models. Granted, someone on his team may have filled him in.

uggedal 16y ago
Aza Raskin is also a developer: http://code.google.com/p/pythonicjavascript/ http://code.google.com/p/pythonicjavascript/
- zackattack 16y ago
  And he majored in math and physics at University of Chicago. lol
klodolph 16y ago
Knowledge of, but as a statistics geek, I see a lot of people (like this guy) throw around the term "hidden Markov model" when they don't know what "hidden" means in context. In this context, an ordinary Markov model would be more appropriate. A hidden Markov model denotes the existence of some dynamic parameter that the computer cannot directly observe, such as the user's current mood. Such a model would take into account transitions between "happy" and "angry" in addition to transitions between "Firefox" and "TextMate". These additional hidden variables are very useful in a wide variety of circumstances, but in this situation I suspect it would cause a combinatorial explosion of state space with little measurable benefit to the user.

nkurz 16y ago

Changing from a simple "most recently used" approach to a complex machine learning approach doesn't seem like a a good idea. Perhaps there would be some other small modifications that would keep the system simple and deterministic? For example, he mentions the problem that one gets into once one switches accidentally to the wrong app: once you've switched, it becomes the MRU when you try to switch back. Perhaps a rule that an application isn't added considered the MRU unless you interact with it in some way? So that if you switch to it but immediately switch away it is no different than hovering?

davidw 16y ago

Actually, as a holdout from my fvwm2 days, alt-tab raises a window, and alt-shift-tab lowers it.

ohwaitnvm 16y ago

I can understand the issue the author discusses with making tabbing MRU, but I think preference for this behavior differ between users. I have no trouble internalizing the order of the last few applications (or browser windows), thus MRU is the best for me. I'm likely to have several windows open, and it's fastest for me to be able to quickly bounce between a constantly-updating MRU list. Let's take the "Order of Application Opening" model: If, say, I had opened iTunes between a messenger program and a browser, and I were flipping between browsing and chatting, I would think that iTunes, being a background sort of application, would require me to remember to double-tab every time I wanted to bounce, requiring an extra button press and an internalization of that data instead. (As well, wouldn't the static list then require me to Alt-shift-tab every time I want to bounce backwards? I certainly could tab forward and wrap around if I had only those two applications open, but that's rarely the case, so it seems that a static ordering would only ever hinder me. Keep the static order to the taskbar/dock where it belongs!) Somewhat related: Something I've always wanted is the ability to navigate tabs in Firefox with CTRL+Left/Right-arrow, similar to the CTRL+# to get to a certain tab number. I looked around once, perhaps a year ago, to no avail, and haven't searched since. Anybody know of an add-on that adds this functionality? edit: BoppreH, in another post, mentions CTRL+[Shift]+Tab. I'm basically asking for this functionality, remapped to CTRL+Arrows (It's more comfortable this way, rather than isolating the button presses to one hand)

rjprins 16y ago
I would simply use autohotkey: ^{Right}::Send ^{Tab} ^{Left}::Send ^+{Tab} But then, that changes behavior for all applications, not just Firefox. There is a keyconfig extension for Firefox: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Keyconfig_extension http://kb.mozillazine.org/Keyconfig_extension you could try that. In Opera it is easy. Personally, I have this functionality under 'j' and 'k'.
alanh 16y ago
You can do this in OS X's preference pane. All my tabbed applications, even Terminal, now use Command+Option+Arrows.

rjprins 16y ago

This problem has frustrated me so much, here are things I do currently: - Ctrl-<number> focus on or start my regular applications (with an autohotkey script). That is 10 applications, more then enough. - Alt-Tab and Shift-Alt-Tab are replaced with Ctrl-; and Ctrl-h I've also tried a script that matches Ctrl-<number> with the programs that are in the taskbar. But found that as the order changes from time to time, I have to recheck what number to use.

wendroid 16y ago

Keep the order fixed but let me shuffle it manually

greendestiny 16y ago
For any common pairs of applications that means n/2 tabs on average to switch back and forth.
- abstractbill 16y ago
  No, because you would manually shuffle common pairs of applications to be next to each other.
  - greendestiny 16y ago
    It would need to swap the common pairs on use. Which is basically this guys scheme except you manually define the pairs. Then again on windows you can alt-shift-tab, so that pretty much takes care of that anyway, if could just have the programs in consistent order.

TotlolRon 16y ago

Imagine it is not the tabs of the browser, but rather the knifes of a surgeon or the controls of an passenger airplane. Would adapting the machine to the human still be that desirable? Humans (still) learn faster and adapt better than machines. Over simplifying stuff for them may actually make things more complex.

mike-cardwell 16y ago

I'm not convinced by the proposed solution. You're changing an ordering method that's predictable to one that is unpredictable, from a human perspective.

GrandMasterBirt 16y ago

OMG YES YES YES! That is exactly perfectly described. When you are switching tabs the 3rd application messes things up. And what is worse is that what if the third application was an accident, now you have to re-alt-tab everything to the proper order. Its kind-of the same problem as when you send out emails. Why can't your email client remember that while there are 5 harrys in your address book, only Harry C is the one you send emails to and thus should be on the top of the auto completion list (FF3 betas missed this feature, FF3 has this now). The problem is: 1) If we do long-term computer learning, the person might judge that this feature is useless. A second person sitting at the computer screws the whole deal. 2) If we do a manual way with "rearrange" were still screwed. Too much work for temporary windows. 3) If the computer guesses wrong, were also screwed because now were stuck with an incorrect ordering. Consider this one: What if instead of trying to get alt-tab to work right, we try to get a consistent (press alt-tab x number of times to get from application foo to application bar) which will remain consistent no matter how many windows are open. So if you go from Eclipse -> Firefox, Eclipse -> Firefox -> Twitter, Firefox -> Eclipse, Firefox -> Eclipse -> Twitter, the user can now form a great habbit: If you are in FF, alt-tab = Eclipse, if you are in FF 2xalt-tab = twitter. Etc. I think a simple formula of Frequency of Use will help. If a habbit is frequent (person switches from application foo -> bar, even using non-alt-tab ways) we can use frequency of use to determine the ordering. Otherwise fall back to LRU (we can always ignore some random tabbing cases). Since a person will keep the recent "places" they been to in their head, it will feel intuitive for them.

bluishgreen 16y ago
"Why can't your email client remember that" - Gmail can figure this out, its a lab feature. Enable it. (See how I assumed you use gmail :), its probabilistic reasoning in action!)
- steadicat 16y ago
  What's the lab extension called? I can't find it. The closest I could find was "Got the wrong Bob?", but that only warns you after you pick an unusual Bob. Sounds like a dirty hack which wants to parade as a clever feature. They should instead just fix the ordering of the auto-suggest dropdown.

scott_s 16y ago

The problem with using a learning model in an interface is making it smart enough to do its job, but dumb enough that the user can easily have a mental job of how it will act. (See the excellent article "Wolfram Alpha and Hubristic Interfaces" and HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=695582 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=695582) The more knobs and heuristics used in the interface, the harder its going to be for me to both guess what's going to happen, and know how to "fix" it when it guesses wrong. I think this is an interesting UI problem, because I encounter it frequently. But I also know how to remedy it easily.

abstractbill 16y ago
The problem with using a learning model in an interface is making it smart enough to do its job, but dumb enough that the user can easily have a mental job of how it will act. Yes, exactly. At the same time as the switcher program is trying to learn the user's common patterns, the user is also trying to learn how the switcher works. I can see that not ending very well! It would be particularly frustrating during the learning phase, when the switcher doesn't know the user's habits and so switches poorly, and at the same time the user is struggling to figure out what order the switcher will put things in.

dennisgorelik 16y ago

This change is almost impossible to predict and is breaking existing UI. Will not fly.

moe 16y ago

In ion3 I have a fairly efficient set of keyboard shortcuts for tab navigation: Alt+Left jumps to left tab. Alt+Shift+Left moves the current tab to the left. Same for all other directions. Oh and obviously tabs (windows) never change position on their own. This works much better than any other system I have used. Muscle memory is a beautiful, magical thing. It's a pity that all mainstream OS'es insist on deliberately making it impossible to take any advantage of it. MRU in alt-tab is the most idiotic idea since the modal dialog.

njharman 16y ago

My solution is to use mostly non-overlapping windows and add more (and bigger) monitors. Overlapping windows is a poor design forced on us back when we had 640x480 7" monitors. It's time to let it die. My tab usage in FF is less switching tabs, and much more opening lots of tabs and going through (and closing) them one by one. When I find my self switching tabs in FF too much I drag one tab into a new window.

nick5768 16y ago
This is my usage pattern as well, except I am using Chrome, It really highlights (one of) the benefits of having each tab in a separate process: it doesn't need to reload the page saving both time and the keeping the spot I have scrolled to on the page.

sliverstorm 16y ago

An idea just popped into my head- Tab+1, Tab+2... Allow manual ordering, or perhaps order the same way as the task bar, so a visual guide is always visible and the order does not change often.

trickjarrett 16y ago

I don't see how this will apply to browser tabs reliably. Are you doing it based on page url or domain? Page url has the obvious shortfall of being so rarely used for a long amount of time. It might be used for an hour, or perhaps a day, or in some rare cases where you do interact with a single url for a long period of time, but those cases will be few and far between. Domain seems too generic. If I'm on HN then I may flip to gmail frequently as I work through the day, but that doesn't mean that when I'm in Gmail I want to always tab to HN, perhaps it's to my blog, or work's admin section. I guess actually my issue is that he uses a single pair example. If I'm on HN, then gmail would probably be a likely tab target, but on Gmail, the options of targets greatly expands. HN would be at top because of recent use, but the other sites mentioned would also be likely targets. So then we suffer from the frequent order changing that was cited as a downfall of the MRU method. Am I wrong here?

DLWormwood 16y ago

Stuff like this is why I never learned to use modifier-tab in the first place. I've always been happy to use the slightly more expensive menu/palette selection idiom, since I can reliably communicate intent to the device without situational thinking. There really is a a degree of wasted effort in trying to make computers "read our minds." Trying too hard to make the common case easy can make even the 2nd common case too expensive to justify the savings.

prone 16y ago

(tabmix plus for FF(so that it remembers the order of my browsing)) + (alt(pc)/command(mac)-tab for apps) + (alt-~ for windows within apps) = maybe I'm missing something, but i have no problems. The solution proposed is too complicated for me to want.

alanh 16y ago
Missed the point. He’s talking about the order of apps (or tabs) when switching and optimizing the common case. Listing keystrokes adds nothing…

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

10ren 16y ago

Why not have more than one row of alt-tabs; use the cursor keys to select which one. But in fact I do this already, just without the visual representation, and it's confusing too: - alt-tab between firefox and vim - ctrl-6 within vim - ctrl-tab within firefox. BTW: you can rearrange tabs in firefox, and tab-mix (plugin) allows you to expt with customizing it in every weird way you can imagine, and some other ways too. A good test-bed for prototyping alt-tab solutions.

twopoint718 16y ago

The solution that (mostly) works for me is a combination of multiple virtual desktops (I use 9), and a tiling window manager (dwm). I usually don't exceed 2 or 3 windows per virtual desktop and the number of desktops is fixed. I have it wired into my fingers that Super+<n> takes me to desktop 'n', and then, typically I'm on the window I want. If not, it is a constant number of "Super+n" to get me to the window (because I don't exceed 3 windows per desktop). This works for me because I can remember the "place" where windows are, and it is usually one or two chords away.

cool-RR 16y ago
I do that too, it's pretty great. I'm on Windows so I use Dexpot, which is pretty okay.
- dkersten 16y ago
  I hadn't heard of Dexpot - thanks for mentioning it. I've been looking for some decent tools for Windows and have been unsatisfied with others so far. I'll try Despot for a while and see how I like it. First impressions are good, though (at least out of the box) the fullscreen preview doesn't play nicely with multiple monitors :-(
- jsulak 16y ago
  I'm a fan of VirtuaWin myself: http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/ http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/
- ronnier 16y ago
  Clickable link: http://www.dexpot.de/index.php?lang=en http://www.dexpot.de/index.php?lang=en
dkersten 16y ago
I do the same, only instead of dwm, I use musca. And I have 11 virtual desktops assigned to Super+<1 through 0, and the key left of 1>. I also always use the same virtual desktops for certain tasks, so finding windows is easy: firefox? its in the web browsing desktops: 7 and 8! Pidgin? Thats desktop 9, etc etc. Finally, switching between windows within a single desktop is a simple matter of changing focus in a direction by using Super+<cursor keys> (I can resize and swap by using Super+Shift+<cursor keys> and Super+Alt+<cursor keys>). I can also cycle through windows in one frame (Super+c), but its not often I have more than one window in a frame (since I normally have either one fullscreen window in a desktop or i have two to four windows tiled), but when I do, its normally only one, so cycling is more of a "toggle between windows" for me. Super, being the "windows key", is a great key to use for window management. Windows key is for windows management is easy to explain to people ;-)

cturner 16y ago

This is a classic example of the design tradeoff that directly pits new users against power users. MRU is a simple, solid solution. Like many powerful tools, it takes some learning, and is then dependable. The alternative suggested here is a very complicated solution that power users will hate because it's unpredictable. You’ve been using alt-tab to bounce back-and-forth ... tab. What happens? Because of your habit, you expect it to go to your web browser, but because the last used application was your Twitter client, that’s where it switches. Experienced users will handle this by repopulating the cycle when they switch. In this case alt+tab, release, alt+tab, alt+tab, release, alt+tab.

kscaldef 16y ago
I guess I'd consider myself an "experienced alt-tab user", and I have this frustration on a regular basis. Yes, as you say, I can manually reorder the apps, but it annoys me to have to do so.
- yason 16y ago
  Same here. I've solved the problem by not using any of this alt-tab behaviour. I have a suboptimal usage pattern that's still more intuitive than alt-tab. I've bound alt-tab and ctrl-tab to raise/lower window. While I do use four virtual desktops to group windows of similar interest, I generally just hide the frontmost window when I want to switch. This keeps the cycle static and I can do most things by using keyboard only. I rarely have more than 3-4 windows on a single desktop so I've kind of manually grouped the desired applications together already. If I want to break the cycle and switch directly to a specific window, I just point my mouse to it and use the keyboard to raise it front.
bh3 16y ago
I agree with this. While I don't find the current tab system particularly wonderful - back when I used arch linux I think I just used ratpoison /w windows mapped to numbers, this solution means that the user would need to either understand the current mode the task switching program is in at any given time or actually interpret the order of the programs. Yes, it minimizes key-strokes between the most used windows, but it also means that each window might have a connection and behavior that could change at any time. It might work, but I'm sure there are better solutions.

tel 16y ago

It saddens me to see Aza proud of dropping out of "3/4 of the schools he attended" as his title bar proclaims. It's one thing to note that a lot of people drop out of schools to seek their passions, but I never think of the dropping out as being the moment of pride.

zackattack 16y ago
Your loyalty should be to yourself, and your sadness comes from within. "Finishing what you start" is not virtuous. Mining what you need and then redirecting your attention is a smarter approach.
- tel 16y ago
  Questions of loyalty aside, you're trying too hard to be profound. I'm using sympathy, an interesting human emotion, to make commentary, not dredging up personal strife or attempting directly to change Aza's life and purpose. Also, I still have to disagree with marketing dropping out 3 times so blithely. Opinions may differ, but as it stands I could interpret that to mean he's had 3 semesters at different colleges and the a degree from a community college. Without even critiquing that course of action, it certainly doesn't seem to convey the same message Aza undoubtedly wants to share. "I've attended four colleges to learn what I use today" is closer to useful, though still weak when you're talking about such easily misunderstood life choices. It invites questioning, discusses the positive mentality that might lead to those decisions, and doesn't sound like a Business Week fluff piece. 98% of people who've had a successful life have dropped out of college; isn't that surprising and almost certainly causal?

deleted 16y ago

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jsulak 16y ago

I'm on Windows, and I've rolled my own solution that uses incremental search, sort of like Emacs ido-mode buffer switching. http://bitbucket.org/jasulak/switcheroo/wiki/Home http://bitbucket.org/jasulak/switcheroo/wiki/Home Not for everyone, but I like it.

techiferous 16y ago
I'm on a Mac and I also rolled my own solution. I hard-coded my most frequently used applications to function keys. It's a great alternative to having multiple monitors (because I'm a nomad freelance developer and do not have a desk). Here are the scripts: http://techiferous.com/2009/12/streamlining-your-workflow-with-applescript/ http://techiferous.com/2009/12/streamlining-your-workflow-wi...
hugothefrog 16y ago
Thanks for the pointer. I was looking for something just like this. It seems to install and work just fine on Win Server 2008 64bit, for reference :)
- jsulak 16y ago
  Glad you like it. Thanks for the info.

avk 16y ago

Was anyone else hoping for a discussion of how or why browsers almost completely ignore MRU for alt-tab? Only Opera supports cycling through tabs in both MRU and tab order (configurable).

ryne 16y ago
If you enable browser.ctrlTab.previews in Firefox's about:config panel you can get MRU tab-switching with thumbnail previews.

gabrielroth 16y ago

I'm surprised to see so much skepticism on this thread. When I read the article, I was delighted to see my own experience described so accurately. It's the second failure that's really galling. It made me wonder what it would take to implement something like this on OS X (in terms of hooking into the OS, rather than in terms of the heuristics). Since the application Witch (http://manytricks.com/witch/ http://manytricks.com/witch/) can be used as a replacement for the built-in App Switcher, it must be possible ...

vog 16y ago

What about simply using two commands? As the article says, there are two use cases which are hard to combine, so why not separating them? For instance, use Alt+Tab to jump to you latest used application, and use Ctrl+Rightarrow to go to the next app in order. Plus, you get an obvious way to go to the previous app in order: Ctrl+Leftarrow.

nevinera 16y ago

In xmonad (and I'd assume most other tilers), there is not only a fixed tabbing order, it is the visual order. I am almost unable to use alt-tab on a more standard window manager now, because it doesn't behave sensibly; it requires you to keep an in-memory ordering on your applications to get to them quickly. A static order that isn't obvious is just as bad as a dynamic one.

mattmaroon 16y ago

Windows 7 solves this quite elegantly by just showing you small previews which you tab through. It takes away the element of (unwanted) surprise.

RevRal 16y ago
If anyone wants something like this in XP, there's Microsoft Powertoys Alt-Tab Replacement.
akshaye 16y ago
But it still takes the attention back to the computer.

aneth 16y ago

I agree with the problem description, but the solution is terrible. It adds unpredictability to the interface, which is worse than simple badness. I'd suggest having new alternative to Alt-Tab that has static positions (reorderable for the power user.)

resdirector 16y ago

What a misleading title! I was all excited that he'd actually solved the problem, and I could download something. As Toby says to Will in an episode of the West Wing: "don't come to me with half a thing and not be able to - you know, after you've walked me to the brink..."

TomasSedovic 16y ago

Windows 7 got pretty close to solving this problem. Winkey+Num makes the n-th window on the taskbar active. Since you can modify the order of the taskbar icons, this solves the spatial memory vs. fast switching between two windows. Winkey+1 for Firefox, Winkey+2 for Twitter, Winkey+3 for something else. This combined with Alt+tab that cycles in the same taskbar order (as opposed to MRU) seems like the holy grail to me. The problem is that this would break the existing expectations of Alt+tab, which is why I fear it won't happen.

Hexstream 16y ago

I don't understand why you couldn't just let the user optionally specify such pairings manually instead of trying to infer it in an unreliable way. It's not like you regularly use dozens of different apps which would benefit from a pairing like that. If the user frequently wants to switch between the text editor and the browser, just let him specify so directly.