6 ms·

Another good read on the topic: http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/the-shame-of-work#.WDH4ARBQD-M.email http://newramblerreview.com/book

by cesarbs 10y ago

Another good read on the topic: http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/the-shame-of-work#.WDH4ARBQD-M.email http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/t... I like this bit: "the knowledge worker is under severe external constraints. Much of their work is assisted or mediated through information technology, which contributes to a de-skilling of their cognitive labor. And on top of this they are expected to fully invest themselves in their jobs in a way that manufacturing laborers never did: they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work. The whole thing is exhausting."

vacri 10y ago
Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy. It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about managing some sort of knowledge, but in truth they deal with less knowledge than a subsistence farmer, who has to know a hell of a lot about agronomy. Classifying call center drones (of which I was once one) as 'knowledge workers', and then using them to discuss how hard knowledge workers have it, is beyond disingenuous.
- mooneater 10y ago
  Not sure why you are being downvoted, I think this point of view is valid.
- cesarbs 10y ago
  This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall from my experience that illustrate this: - I had a team lead who once said, "I don't want people in this team working like this is a 9-5 job" - Something I heard from someone in a team that worked close to ours: "the candidate was solid in problem solving and coding ability, but we didn't hire them because they didn't show passion" This sort of bullshit is pervasive in our field and IMO is what the quote above is referring to.
  - kLeeIsDead 10y ago
    I thought the call-center example was dumb too, but he got his point across. What you describe is the way I read it as well. That's why I don't think I'm going to pursue a career in software engineering despite doing it as a hobby since a young age. I think there'd be some irreversible damage to my brain if I used something I've liked and identified with for my whole life as a means to do something I hate. To me it seems like a form of self-induced brainwashing. I'll stick with blue collar jobs. The pay is not nearly as good, but my mind can be free.
    - cesarbs 10y ago
      What sort of blue collar job do you do? A part of me dislikes that I turned what was a genuine interest of mine into my job. Software was a lot more fun to do before it became a professional thing for me.
      - kLeeIsDead 10y ago
        I'm still in college, but I have some experience in renovating apartments/houses so I'll probably do that.
        Drdrdrq 10y ago
        That might work out well for you because it is creative. Working in a factory or in an office though... Not so much.
    - Natsu 10y ago
      I dunno. I've done straight-up factory work, i.e. manual labor as well as IT. Maybe I just have a good company, but I'd much rather do this than ever go back to factory work, even if the pay were better in the factory job.
      - collyw 10y ago
        Try doing Salesforce integrations. Unstimulating, boring factory line work IT.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- freehunter 10y ago
  Actually the more specialized you get, the harder it becomes. Think of all the mainframe guys who saw that technology disappear before they retired. Either they were independently learning a new skill by themselves so they could move from Senior Mainframe Developer to Junior Frontend Rockstar (with the appropriate pay cut), or they're now unskilled workers at McDonalds.
  - asdfasdfa11112 10y ago
    I dunno, my aunt still makes a good living programming for the AS-400, as she has done for multiple decades.
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>call center drones How about the Amazon drones, even the ones on the "Amazon software team"? Is working at Amazon much different than what your parent described? Odd working hours, working beyond your duty hours, constant stress and some more negatives. Amazon does get in bad light due to such practices. So. Add to that the H1B visa drones. Although I agree with your overall premise and argument about that article, I think many if not most workers in software world are not very far off. edit: added H1B point
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >Classifying call center drones (of which I was once one) as 'knowledge workers', and then using them to discuss how hard knowledge workers have it, is beyond disingenuous. Disingenuous because it doesn't align with how you have chosen define "knowledge worker"? Because as far as I'm concerned a knowledge worker is a person who's knowledge is their main tool. "White collar" is another common title. Call center drones definitely qualify under either of these definitions. I mean, a point of the piece is that there's a misinterpretation about how glamorous the "knowledge worker" title is. The fact that you work a cushy, high-paying job doesn't refute that.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  Call center drones are indeed knowledge workers, and they're one of the most ideal kinds -- completely deskilled, completely fungible. An inefficient call center could potentially have a smaller crew of highly educated and trained staff creatively diagnosing and solving issues. But now those employees are harder to replace, and their scarcity beckons higher wages. But even if a call center did (and they do) have higher compentency people on staff, they'll protect those resources with fungible knowledge workers performing de-skilled units of work. Also, I could easily believe that farming <operations> have higher net knowledge requirements versus call center <operations> (it's arguable). But the units of work for both farming and call centers are as de-skilled as possible for maximum employee fungibility.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  >but in truth they deal with less knowledge than a subsistence farmer, who has to know a hell of a lot about agronomy. If they had to then they would. Since they do not, obviously they do not have to. Very few farmers of any sort know much of anything about agriculture other than cargo cult knowledge that is largely misguided or inaccurate.

by cesarbs 10y ago

vacri 10y ago

Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy. It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about managing some sort of knowledge, but in truth they deal with less knowledge than a subsistence farmer, who has to know a hell of a lot about agronomy. Classifying call center drones (of which I was once one) as 'knowledge workers', and then using them to discuss how hard knowledge workers have it, is beyond disingenuous.

mooneater 10y ago
Not sure why you are being downvoted, I think this point of view is valid.
cesarbs 10y ago
This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall from my experience that illustrate this: - I had a team lead who once said, "I don't want people in this team working like this is a 9-5 job" - Something I heard from someone in a team that worked close to ours: "the candidate was solid in problem solving and coding ability, but we didn't hire them because they didn't show passion" This sort of bullshit is pervasive in our field and IMO is what the quote above is referring to.
- kLeeIsDead 10y ago
  I thought the call-center example was dumb too, but he got his point across. What you describe is the way I read it as well. That's why I don't think I'm going to pursue a career in software engineering despite doing it as a hobby since a young age. I think there'd be some irreversible damage to my brain if I used something I've liked and identified with for my whole life as a means to do something I hate. To me it seems like a form of self-induced brainwashing. I'll stick with blue collar jobs. The pay is not nearly as good, but my mind can be free.
  - cesarbs 10y ago
    What sort of blue collar job do you do? A part of me dislikes that I turned what was a genuine interest of mine into my job. Software was a lot more fun to do before it became a professional thing for me.
    - kLeeIsDead 10y ago
      I'm still in college, but I have some experience in renovating apartments/houses so I'll probably do that.
      - Drdrdrq 10y ago
        That might work out well for you because it is creative. Working in a factory or in an office though... Not so much.
  - Natsu 10y ago
    I dunno. I've done straight-up factory work, i.e. manual labor as well as IT. Maybe I just have a good company, but I'd much rather do this than ever go back to factory work, even if the pay were better in the factory job.
    - collyw 10y ago
      Try doing Salesforce integrations. Unstimulating, boring factory line work IT.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
freehunter 10y ago
Actually the more specialized you get, the harder it becomes. Think of all the mainframe guys who saw that technology disappear before they retired. Either they were independently learning a new skill by themselves so they could move from Senior Mainframe Developer to Junior Frontend Rockstar (with the appropriate pay cut), or they're now unskilled workers at McDonalds.
- asdfasdfa11112 10y ago
  I dunno, my aunt still makes a good living programming for the AS-400, as she has done for multiple decades.
tmptmp 10y ago
>>call center drones How about the Amazon drones, even the ones on the "Amazon software team"? Is working at Amazon much different than what your parent described? Odd working hours, working beyond your duty hours, constant stress and some more negatives. Amazon does get in bad light due to such practices. So. Add to that the H1B visa drones. Although I agree with your overall premise and argument about that article, I think many if not most workers in software world are not very far off. edit: added H1B point
forgetsusername 10y ago
>Classifying call center drones (of which I was once one) as 'knowledge workers', and then using them to discuss how hard knowledge workers have it, is beyond disingenuous. Disingenuous because it doesn't align with how you have chosen define "knowledge worker"? Because as far as I'm concerned a knowledge worker is a person who's knowledge is their main tool. "White collar" is another common title. Call center drones definitely qualify under either of these definitions. I mean, a point of the piece is that there's a misinterpretation about how glamorous the "knowledge worker" title is. The fact that you work a cushy, high-paying job doesn't refute that.
threatofrain 10y ago
Call center drones are indeed knowledge workers, and they're one of the most ideal kinds -- completely deskilled, completely fungible. An inefficient call center could potentially have a smaller crew of highly educated and trained staff creatively diagnosing and solving issues. But now those employees are harder to replace, and their scarcity beckons higher wages. But even if a call center did (and they do) have higher compentency people on staff, they'll protect those resources with fungible knowledge workers performing de-skilled units of work. Also, I could easily believe that farming <operations> have higher net knowledge requirements versus call center <operations> (it's arguable). But the units of work for both farming and call centers are as de-skilled as possible for maximum employee fungibility.
MustardTiger 10y ago
>but in truth they deal with less knowledge than a subsistence farmer, who has to know a hell of a lot about agronomy. If they had to then they would. Since they do not, obviously they do not have to. Very few farmers of any sort know much of anything about agriculture other than cargo cult knowledge that is largely misguided or inaccurate.