6 ms·

> There are no major cultural or ethnic similarities. Apart from food, folklore, traditions, musical and literatal traditions, grammar and punctuation? > The

by nj923f 10y ago

> There are no major cultural or ethnic similarities. Apart from food, folklore, traditions, musical and literatal traditions, grammar and punctuation? > The language is so different it doesn't even belong to the same branch in the language tree. (compared to family of Slavic languages - Ukrainian, Belarusian, Slovak, Polish, Czech, etc) Actually it's common Balto-Slavic branch. I'm not kidding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages > Latvians do not want anything to do with Russia or it's culture or it's politics. Politics - wery true, culture - not much so. Older people might not want to have anything to do with Russian culture, but they don't really have much choice, as there isn't much going on in Latvia and they don't speak English. Thus every old lady in the country knows what's going on between Pugacheva and Kirkorov (old Russian pop-figures) and pretty much everyone is watching Russian TV (because there is no alternatives entertainment-wise).

mk3 10y ago
Are you kidding me Balto-Slavic languages??? 1. Latvian and Estonian belongs to Baltic language family. 2. Estonian language has also nothing to do with slavic language also as it's a branch in Finno-Ugric languages. Also using wikipedia as a source of information is questionable. As the pages related to post-soviet era countries are propoganda war zone for Russia and the countries itself to promote the point of view needed.
ldev 10y ago
Food - yes, a lot. Folklore, traditions, etc - no. The only reason why russian culture was in Lithuania in, lets say, 1980, it's because we were occupied? Mostly nothing left when we regained our independance...
- ni923f 10y ago
  The post I was replying to, specifically mentioned Latvia. I mostly agree with your characterization of Lithuania. Well, I would add corruption and bureaucracy to the things that still make Lithuania look very familiar to many Russians.
  - ice3 10y ago
    Are you kidding me? I live and work in Lithuania. Lithuania - corruption index 32/168 [1] Russia - corruption index 119/168 [2] Regarding bureaucracy: You do know that almost everything in Lithuania is done electronically? I can open a company in a couple of days without leaving my house. Same with my taxes. And if I do need to sign something, I usually sign it with my e-signature and just send over the signed PDF. I haven't seen much bureaucracy here in years. Now try that in Russia. Language-wise (another parent, but I'm too lazy to make a 2nd comment): I speak both - Russian and Lithuanian... and while there are similarities, like next to no word order, structure, punctuation etc. There are more differences than similarities. Roots of most words are different. There are more verb forms in Lithuanian [3] which slavic languages lack. Lithuanian still preserves a fully functional future tense, unlike say slavic languages that lost the future tense (like english) and have to use a compound future tense. Lithuanian itself feels much more archaic. Linguistically the baltic languages are as close to slavic languages as they are close to german languages[4] [1]http://www.transparency.org/country#LTU http://www.transparency.org/country#LTU [2]http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS [3]http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm [4]https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/ https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among...
    - nj923f 10y ago
      > Lithuania - corruption index 32/168 [1] Russia - corruption index 119/168 [2] Cool, I was really thinking of former ombudsman/Health Minister ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimant%C4%97_%C5%A0ala%C5%A1evi%C4%8Di%C5%ABt%C4%97 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimant%C4%97_%C5%A0ala%C5%A1ev... ), Transport Minister ( https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/5225-lithuania-former-minister-of-transport-accused-in-100-000-bribery https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/5225-lithuania-former-ministe... ) and President ( https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/4991-lithuania-former-president-questioned-in-corruption-case https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/4991-lithuania-former-preside... ), which all have seen bribery-related scandals just this year, but corruption index there is better than in Russia, so I guess everything is fine. As for bureaucracy, no I didn't know that you have functional electronic government, that's really awesome! My comment was based on experiences there in 2006-2009, I guess a lot have changed since then. > There are more differences than similarities. I guess, you realize that that's a really pointless statement. Russian speaker can understand meaning of some spoken sentences and some other words are understandable if you read them. Sure, there are differences, - that's why they are considered separate languages! But Russian speaker without prior knowledge wouldn't understand any sentence in German or Norwegian. I hope this makes sense. Also, speakers of one Slavic language do not necessary understand all other Slavic language speakers, so this just isn't what you should expect from linguistically close languages. By the way, that picture you linked to (in [4]) clearly shows that Polish is relatively closer to Lithuanian (51-70 distance) than Lithuanian is to German (>=71), check out the diagram's legend.
stackallocator 10y ago
I'll repeat. For the most part, there are no major cultural and ethnic similarities. The damage and the marks the Soviet regime has left is undeniable however. If you have heard Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian language you'll quickly notice just how different they are and bunching them together with Slavic languages makes absolutely no sense in any shape or form. Baltic languages are very clearly distinct from Slavic ones: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Slavic_languages_tree.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Slavic_l... They are on a completely separate branch which - for some odd reason - in this particular interpretation is held by a common root. The decision to have an encompassing "Balto-Slavic" group is questionable at best and is often disputed. Even the Wikipedia source says as much: "Some linguists, however, have recently suggested that Balto-Slavic should be split into three equidistant groups: Eastern Baltic, Western Baltic and Slavic." Anecdotal evidence time! All older ladies I know do not watch Russian television and don't understand Russian language well enough to do so. Saying that everyone is watching Russian TV is objectively false. There are alternatives entertainment-wise! Latvia is in top10 by average internet speed. 70-80% of the population use the internet fairly regularly. Most households in Latvia do have an internet connection. Even out in the country! Even if a person doesn't speak English, there still is a huge difference between watching Russian TV and watching downloaded American movies and TV-series over-dubbed in Russian. Latvian youth almost exclusively consumes media in English.
- ni923f 10y ago
  > Baltic languages are very clearly distinct from Slavic ones No, they are not and you're picture is not an argument for this claim. There are differences between Baltic and Slavic languages, sure, but grammatically they are very close. Rules of conjugation/declension are similar, word formation works the same, punctuation rules are almost exactly same, capitalization is similar, word order is close enough that it can be used interchangeably. It's easy to see how that could happen, given long shared history. Denying facts because of your political points is just ridiculous. > All older ladies I know do not watch Russian television and don't understand Russian language well enough to do so. You're right, I shouldn't have used that hyperbole. Of course not everyone is watching Russian TV, but in Riga most older people definitely do. And by older I mean >40 years, not necessary seniors. If you live in Riga and haven't met any of them, you probably just are very picky about people you communicate with.
asveikau 10y ago
> Actually it's common Balto-Slavic branch. I'm not kidding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages I am American, and my father's parents were from Lithuania. I noticed recently, within the last few years, that several English Wikipedia articles were edited by someone with a Slavic background to promote the idea that Baltic languages are more related to Slavic ones than I have heard anyone claim before. I would imagine this is a controversial claim in the Baltic states. At any rate Baltic languages are famously more conservative than Slavic ones. They are of course related as all indo-european languages are. The only question is how far back in history you have to go for that to be a relevant matter. I do not think they are close enough that it is relevant.
- nj923f 10y ago
  This hasn't been controversial in Latvia at all, at least in 90-00's (not that scientific theories should be judged by how controversial they are among laymen). The theory that I heard in several Latvian schools, is that lithuanians and latvians had a common language with slavs and they got separated somewhere in bronze age. Lithuanian language supposedly is the most archaic language alive (that is closest to proto-indo-european language by some measures). As far as I undestand there is consensus between linguists working in the field, that Baltic and Slavic languages are very close, the only questionable part is whether there was proto-balto-slavic language or whether these languages acquired similarities over time (also, some suggest that slavic languages separated from existing proto-baltic language). Given tendency for revisionism and troubled past between Baltic states and Russia, one could see how it seems so alien to some people. Btw, here is article on this topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Balto-Slavic_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Balto-Slavic_language (also https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltu-sl%C4%81vu_pirmvalodas_hipot%C4%93ze https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltu-sl%C4%81vu_pirmvalodas_h... which is much shorter, but has different references), and it seems that theory itself actually has been proposed by western linguists.

by nj923f 10y ago

mk3 10y ago

Are you kidding me Balto-Slavic languages??? 1. Latvian and Estonian belongs to Baltic language family. 2. Estonian language has also nothing to do with slavic language also as it's a branch in Finno-Ugric languages. Also using wikipedia as a source of information is questionable. As the pages related to post-soviet era countries are propoganda war zone for Russia and the countries itself to promote the point of view needed.

ldev 10y ago

Food - yes, a lot. Folklore, traditions, etc - no. The only reason why russian culture was in Lithuania in, lets say, 1980, it's because we were occupied? Mostly nothing left when we regained our independance...

ni923f 10y ago
The post I was replying to, specifically mentioned Latvia. I mostly agree with your characterization of Lithuania. Well, I would add corruption and bureaucracy to the things that still make Lithuania look very familiar to many Russians.
- ice3 10y ago
  Are you kidding me? I live and work in Lithuania. Lithuania - corruption index 32/168 [1] Russia - corruption index 119/168 [2] Regarding bureaucracy: You do know that almost everything in Lithuania is done electronically? I can open a company in a couple of days without leaving my house. Same with my taxes. And if I do need to sign something, I usually sign it with my e-signature and just send over the signed PDF. I haven't seen much bureaucracy here in years. Now try that in Russia. Language-wise (another parent, but I'm too lazy to make a 2nd comment): I speak both - Russian and Lithuanian... and while there are similarities, like next to no word order, structure, punctuation etc. There are more differences than similarities. Roots of most words are different. There are more verb forms in Lithuanian [3] which slavic languages lack. Lithuanian still preserves a fully functional future tense, unlike say slavic languages that lost the future tense (like english) and have to use a compound future tense. Lithuanian itself feels much more archaic. Linguistically the baltic languages are as close to slavic languages as they are close to german languages[4] [1]http://www.transparency.org/country#LTU http://www.transparency.org/country#LTU [2]http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS http://www.transparency.org/country#RUS [3]http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm [4]https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/ https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among...
  - nj923f 10y ago
    > Lithuania - corruption index 32/168 [1] Russia - corruption index 119/168 [2] Cool, I was really thinking of former ombudsman/Health Minister ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimant%C4%97_%C5%A0ala%C5%A1evi%C4%8Di%C5%ABt%C4%97 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimant%C4%97_%C5%A0ala%C5%A1ev... ), Transport Minister ( https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/5225-lithuania-former-minister-of-transport-accused-in-100-000-bribery https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/5225-lithuania-former-ministe... ) and President ( https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/4991-lithuania-former-president-questioned-in-corruption-case https://www.occrp.org/en/daily/4991-lithuania-former-preside... ), which all have seen bribery-related scandals just this year, but corruption index there is better than in Russia, so I guess everything is fine. As for bureaucracy, no I didn't know that you have functional electronic government, that's really awesome! My comment was based on experiences there in 2006-2009, I guess a lot have changed since then. > There are more differences than similarities. I guess, you realize that that's a really pointless statement. Russian speaker can understand meaning of some spoken sentences and some other words are understandable if you read them. Sure, there are differences, - that's why they are considered separate languages! But Russian speaker without prior knowledge wouldn't understand any sentence in German or Norwegian. I hope this makes sense. Also, speakers of one Slavic language do not necessary understand all other Slavic language speakers, so this just isn't what you should expect from linguistically close languages. By the way, that picture you linked to (in [4]) clearly shows that Polish is relatively closer to Lithuanian (51-70 distance) than Lithuanian is to German (>=71), check out the diagram's legend.

stackallocator 10y ago

I'll repeat. For the most part, there are no major cultural and ethnic similarities. The damage and the marks the Soviet regime has left is undeniable however. If you have heard Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian language you'll quickly notice just how different they are and bunching them together with Slavic languages makes absolutely no sense in any shape or form. Baltic languages are very clearly distinct from Slavic ones: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Slavic_languages_tree.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Slavic_l... They are on a completely separate branch which - for some odd reason - in this particular interpretation is held by a common root. The decision to have an encompassing "Balto-Slavic" group is questionable at best and is often disputed. Even the Wikipedia source says as much: "Some linguists, however, have recently suggested that Balto-Slavic should be split into three equidistant groups: Eastern Baltic, Western Baltic and Slavic." Anecdotal evidence time! All older ladies I know do not watch Russian television and don't understand Russian language well enough to do so. Saying that everyone is watching Russian TV is objectively false. There are alternatives entertainment-wise! Latvia is in top10 by average internet speed. 70-80% of the population use the internet fairly regularly. Most households in Latvia do have an internet connection. Even out in the country! Even if a person doesn't speak English, there still is a huge difference between watching Russian TV and watching downloaded American movies and TV-series over-dubbed in Russian. Latvian youth almost exclusively consumes media in English.

ni923f 10y ago
> Baltic languages are very clearly distinct from Slavic ones No, they are not and you're picture is not an argument for this claim. There are differences between Baltic and Slavic languages, sure, but grammatically they are very close. Rules of conjugation/declension are similar, word formation works the same, punctuation rules are almost exactly same, capitalization is similar, word order is close enough that it can be used interchangeably. It's easy to see how that could happen, given long shared history. Denying facts because of your political points is just ridiculous. > All older ladies I know do not watch Russian television and don't understand Russian language well enough to do so. You're right, I shouldn't have used that hyperbole. Of course not everyone is watching Russian TV, but in Riga most older people definitely do. And by older I mean >40 years, not necessary seniors. If you live in Riga and haven't met any of them, you probably just are very picky about people you communicate with.

asveikau 10y ago

> Actually it's common Balto-Slavic branch. I'm not kidding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages I am American, and my father's parents were from Lithuania. I noticed recently, within the last few years, that several English Wikipedia articles were edited by someone with a Slavic background to promote the idea that Baltic languages are more related to Slavic ones than I have heard anyone claim before. I would imagine this is a controversial claim in the Baltic states. At any rate Baltic languages are famously more conservative than Slavic ones. They are of course related as all indo-european languages are. The only question is how far back in history you have to go for that to be a relevant matter. I do not think they are close enough that it is relevant.

nj923f 10y ago
This hasn't been controversial in Latvia at all, at least in 90-00's (not that scientific theories should be judged by how controversial they are among laymen). The theory that I heard in several Latvian schools, is that lithuanians and latvians had a common language with slavs and they got separated somewhere in bronze age. Lithuanian language supposedly is the most archaic language alive (that is closest to proto-indo-european language by some measures). As far as I undestand there is consensus between linguists working in the field, that Baltic and Slavic languages are very close, the only questionable part is whether there was proto-balto-slavic language or whether these languages acquired similarities over time (also, some suggest that slavic languages separated from existing proto-baltic language). Given tendency for revisionism and troubled past between Baltic states and Russia, one could see how it seems so alien to some people. Btw, here is article on this topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Balto-Slavic_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Balto-Slavic_language (also https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltu-sl%C4%81vu_pirmvalodas_hipot%C4%93ze https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltu-sl%C4%81vu_pirmvalodas_h... which is much shorter, but has different references), and it seems that theory itself actually has been proposed by western linguists.