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Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

83 points by flyingyeti 10y ago

ubertaco 10y ago
I've only just run across this. It looks like the story here is: 1. Guy publishes paid app to iTunes 2. App is really good, gets a ton of good reviews 3. Apple decides those reviews must be fraudulent, and pulls his app from the store and tells the guy he has to publicly admit that he committed review fraud to get his app reinstated. 4. People who have bought the app can't download it, guy can't do anything to make his own app available anymore without making a false confession and harming his own reputation. This sort of heavy-handed-but-uncareful approach to "curation" is consistent with my experience publishing to the iOS app store.
- joeberon 10y ago
  What actually happened: 1. Guy publishes good paid app and gets a tonne of good reviews 2. He helps out a relative by buying an apple developer account for them, giving them a machine to test with 3. Relative also uses same "com.kapeli.*" bundle ID 4. Relative decides to buy 1000 fraudulent reviews 5. Apple tells the relative to stop posting fraud reviews, who refuses 6. Apple terminates both developers accounts since they are all the same information (they look like the same person, same credit card, bank account, test machine, and bundle ID) https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/56uque/apple_dash_developer_had_two_accounts_25_apps_and/?st=iu5jzhpf&sh=fa17ecd2 https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/56uque/apple_dash_de...
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Don't forget: 7. Apple offers to reinstate the developer account, iff the user makes a post pointing out how this wasn't Apple's fault.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - okket 10y ago
    I find it hard to believe that this happened without his knowledge. It was his credit card. It was his identifier. I can not imagine he never searched the store for lookalikes or his identifier, etc. See https://software.com/publisher/kapeli https://software.com/publisher/kapeli Just to clarify: On Friday my position was "I have no reason to believe Kapeli is lying and every reason to believe that Apple made a mistake". But after reading and listening to various sources I can not defend this position any more. It makes me sad.
  - funkydata 10y ago
    The accounts were linked (same devices, same credit card number): https://london.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a https://london.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a (edit: direct link to the phone call with the Apple representative) As much as they tend to piss me off for other things. I don't see any wrongdoing from them. It's like accusing them of cutting off the payments to a bakery that operates from the same bank account to that of a drug dealer. Also that kind of blackmail: "You're sure you want that statement to become public?" is plain stupid.
    - joeberon 10y ago
      Why is the developer being so dense? Just being difficult for no reason because he has a stick up his ass. "You're sure you want that statement to become public" it literally makes no sense... All he's done is posting that Apple call has burnt every bridge he had with them, and made Apple look great. Literally they sound very professional on that call and very willing to help him, and instead he is just being unnecessarily difficult.
      - spacehunt 10y ago
        Actually I wouldn't be so sure as to who burnt the bridge first. He posted the recording after Apple went public with their side of the story. What happened to the supposed blog post? Why did Apple go to the press without getting back to him on the draft?
        cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
        No one knows what happened between the phone call and Apple's press release. So we can't make judgment on that. That said, I was amazed how that guy from Apple was being so patient with this guy being so immature. The Apple guy was trying his best to sort this out, but for every word he said, this Dash guy would keep complaining. This phone call could have ended in 30 seconds but took over 7 minutes because all this guy did was complain (which I think he did for the purpose of making this recording), and I don't even know what you would get from complaining that way when the other person was trying to help you. I would have been pissed if I was that Apple guy.
  - spacehunt 10y ago
    > 3. Relative also uses same "com.kapeli.*" bundle ID Just saying: anyone can freely create any App ID they want. I just successfully created "com.google.android.nougat" as a test.
    - okket 10y ago
      Do you expect to use this identifier to make money (in a fraudulent way) and Google not caring over several years?
    - st3v3r 10y ago
      I'm fairly sure you don't have the same user and CC on file as they do.
      - spacehunt 10y ago
        But it proves bundle IDs can only be treated as circumstantial evidence at most.
        st3v3r 10y ago
        So you combine that with the same CC number on file, and the same development machines, and now you have a very good chance the same person is responsible.
- Crosseye_Jack 10y ago
  In addition to what joeberon said. After this happened Apple were prepared to welcome him back to the App Store after Apple had learnt of all the facts. Kapei had gone public about this account nuke (which at times is the only way to raise the issue, I remember the times I've had to deal with Googles Support for the play store shudder) and while he didn't know all the details on why his account was nuked the issue has gained some notable press in the dev circles. Because of this Apple had asked for him to release a blog post explaining what had happened, that Apple had correctly detected fake reviews on one account, that account was linked in a couple of ways to him so when Apple nuked the one account they nuked the other along with it and that's is why his account was terminated. Now in my opinion that is a fair request and if I were in his shoes I would of done just that because I can see how Apple could of tied the two accounts together. Others have said that it's Apple Blackmailing him "Post a blog post if you want your account back" and I can see their logic. Apple don't want to be seen as they made a mistake because they did detect fake reviews and took account against the account volating their polices. But they also want it known why his account was caught up in this mess. Were Apple right in nuking both accounts that they deemed were linked together? Should Apple made contact with all parties (it seems the accounts did have at least differnt contact information as he said he got no notice off Apple, Apple say they did contact the dev who's app had the fake reviews) before terminating accounts? Should a public statement explaining the incident be a requirement of reinclusion to the App Store These are questions I have asked myself and have yet to come to a firm decision on myself.
  - funkydata 10y ago
    Have you listened to the phone call?
    - Crosseye_Jack 10y ago
      Yes. Well the snippet of the call that was released on his blog anyway.
      - funkydata 10y ago
        There is not blackmailing from Apple. They are offering him a chance to wipe his slate clean if he publicly (since he was the one to go public) acknowledges that what Apple did was justified (and it was). He has to now decide what's more important: his pride or his revenue (https://web.archive.org/web/20150103225308/http://blog.kapeli.com/my-year-in-review-2014 https://web.archive.org/web/20150103225308/http://blog.kapel...), it's that simple.
matt4077 10y ago
This guy has shown quite a talent for self-sabotage. Apple was willing to reinstate him if he'd undo some of the PR damage he'd created by spelling out that he shared the credit card with someone, and that maybe that's not the best idea. Instead, he was enjoying the spotlight so much, he used the opportunity to escalate further, even publishing his phone call with Apple (illegal on one side of that conversation at least). And that narrative includes a healthy dose of goodwill, considering how close to "the dog ate it" that story about the family friend is. A friend who apparently also didn't own any Apple hardware, so they shared that as well. But open sourcing the useless iOS app is apparently a bad idea because his customers don't know how to work XCode, which strikes me as counterintuitive, considering every single one of his customers bought programmer-centric software for Mac.
- elpocko 10y ago
  I don't know what the app is about, I have never even used an Apple product in all my live. But I admire this guy for not bowing to the demands of Apple. Sticking to your principles, even when that means you're losing money (or, as you put it, "self-sabotage") is not something you see very often nowadays.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    He did comply, he just did it in a very odd manner.
- erikrothoff 10y ago
  From my perspective, most of the PR damage is because a lot of other smaller developers have come out of the woodwork to voice their grievances with Apple. These kind of things happen all the time, and a lot of us feel stood on by the giant Apple. Even though this event sounds like a special case, it still highlights the draconian behavior we deal with. (That's what I would call Apple trying to get him to post a blog post with a "statement" about how wrong he was...) I have never felt so small as when dealing with Apple and the app store.
choicewords 10y ago
I feel bad for this developer. He's clearly quite driven, and that might have inspired his family to reach for the same success. And wanting to help, he gave his card, and now his program has been terminated. I'll keep using Dash, but I hope the dev will clear himself out from someone that is not helping.
bnycum 10y ago
There feels like no right side in this story. * Apple terminated both accounts because of fraudulent activity, but only one account was contacted to let them know of this activity. * Kapeli shared financial information and test devices with this other account, whether it was a relative or not. * Apple said "Hey, write a post telling the whole story and all will be cleared. Just don't say we were at fault." * Kapeli agreed he would draft and send. Kapeli apparently did but never heard back. * Apple had a spokesperson come out that painted a different a picture that basically seem to throw Kapeli under the bus.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Well, Kapeli recorded and uploaded the phone call, shooting himself in the foot.
  - bnycum 10y ago
    Call it what you will, but it's the only time in this whole story that hasn't been "he said, she said."
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      And given that nugget of actual evidence, I can decisively say that he definitely screwed himself over. This is how the business world works. Sometimes you can't get the best deal, but it's still in your best interest to accept it regardless. You have to act rationally; you can't just defect (to borrow some game theory parlance -- this literally resembles Prisoner's Dilemma) in the name of "principles." One moderately-crafted blog post later (saying Apple wasn't at fault, and he wasn't either -- his account was "only" linked to the other one), this guy would have been back in business. It's no surprise that this guy hasn't ever worked at a big company before, if you don't swallow your pride every so often and keep your mouth shut, you get kicked to the curb, and it's surreal that he was a self-professed businessman because of how often this happens in the game. He WAS winning, and he would've won (nobody would've taken his PR damage control post seriously, and initially everyone believed his fabricated narrative of innocence), but he royally #$!@ed up because he thought he could've had his cake and eaten it too. I can't under any circumstances imagine any possible outcome to this scenario where Apple would've both admitted wrongdoing AND reinstated his app. Let's not get too greedy here...
edko 10y ago
This whole thing has taught me a lesson. I initially sided with the weaker side because I own a copy of Dash, and it is great software, and because one tends to side with the underdog. After listening to the recording of the conversation, my feeling is that Apple is handling this in a very fair and professional way, and that I was too quick to take sides. I think it is not unreasonable to assume that: same credit card + same hardware = same developer.
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  I generally agree with you but wanted to point out that: > same credit card + same hardware = same developer is fine as a pseudo-identifier for fraud detection...but I don't think is actually an identifier. It's kind of like someone knowing my social security number and birthday but not actually being me. IMO, Apple should have immediately reinstated the account once contacted about a potential edge case rather than insist that, "they did nothing wrong" because the implication of that is that the above two pieces of information is legally acceptable as personal identification and that the developer _did_ do something wrong. I may not believe Kapeli 100% and his reputation is tarnished some in my eyes, but I don't agree with Apple standing on the notion that CC + device identifiers together are sufficient PII. Fine for fraud detection in a "pseudo-" context...sure...but not enough to deny immediate reinstatement.
  - CodeWriter23 10y ago
    You probably use less information to uniquely identify users in apps that you write. Assuming you write apps in the first place.
    - gshulegaard 10y ago
      Generally, I uniquely identify users by PK sequences on a table with UNIQUE constraints on various pieces of User data. So if Apple had made credit cards and/or test devices UNIQUE to a given account then sure...but that's not what they did here did they?
protomyth 10y ago
Ok, so you get a call from Apple that tells you to write a blog post and they will restore your account. You submit the draft blog post. Then, a respected Apple SVP comes out and calls you a criminal and Apple doesn't reply to the draft. What do you do?
0xmohit 10y ago
This is hilarious: My preferred solution would be for a fellow developer to get it back on the App Store, as a free app. Especially because: Open sourcing doesn’t look like a good solution at this time, as most of my users are not iOS developers and are not familiar with compiling an app for their devices. I may be missing something but the author cannot open source the app, but expects a fellow developer to get it on the App Store as a free app. Can the fellow developer pick up the existing app (binary?) and upload it on the app store?
- mikeash 10y ago
  It would be tough to take the existing app and reupload it, but this guy could certainly provide another developer with a built binary which they would then submit. You'd have to be mad to actually do that, though. We see quite clearly how Apple can react when they think they've been wronged, and who knows what that binary actually contains. Seems like the best approach would be to open source it and convince somebody (perhaps several somebodies) to build it from source and put it on the store for free. Obviously, the source release would need to be under a license that was compatible with an App Store release (i.e. no GPL).
  - eridius 10y ago
    The other developer could be given the source. He doesn't need to open source the app in order to give one other developer access to the source.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  That is likely to get the "fellow developer" banned/suspended with the current App store policy.
cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
I was rooting for him really, because I myself am also at times very frustrated with how Apple treats developers. But I've lost trust in this guy after reading his blog posts and especially the phone call he published. The only reason I can think of why the phone call took over 7 minutes is because he wanted to record it and publish it. Really. If you summarize the phone call. It's basically Apple asking him to publish that his account was indeed linked with the fraud account (not even that he's the one who committed the fraud) and he's working with Apple to resolve it, and rest is this dash guy complaining on and on which is completely unnecessary since Apple already knows that and is saying they understand and want to work with him to "make this right" (The Apple guy literally said "make this right"). Also it is very hard to believe at this point that a "relative" did all this. If I--or any normal person--was in the same situation (I am paying for a relative's developer account with my own credit card with my device and turns out that the relative is committing a fraud), my first reaction would NOT be telling Apple "This has nothing to do with me", but "I had no idea, I am still pissed that you guys didn't notify me, but I also understand your position and will talk to my relative to make sure this doesn't happen. After all, I am the one funding this fraud regardless of whether I was aware or not aware.")
- forgottenpass 10y ago
  If I--or any normal person--was in the same situation If you define "normal" as "milquetoast and with an Americentric perspective," then maybe. Americans are much more submissive when bureaucratic process presents a roadblock. Especially a roadblock that seems on the face more reasonable with an American view of sharing bank accounts and old hardware. Americans' desire for justice and fairness are paraded around. But their sense of justice is beaten out of them until they have Dwight Schrute-esque compliance "That is the law, according to the rules."
  - eridius 10y ago
    Saying "I understand why you linked these accounts and that my relative committed fraud" is not the same thing as being submissive and rolling over, and your portrayal of Americans is rather offensive.
fizzbatter 10y ago
Weird that i find out about this here - wonder if he's able to send an email to Mac Store purchasers like myself. Regardless, i migrated my license, and all seems to be working now. Glad the issue didn't impact me too negatively, and i hope this is true for most of his customers.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Apple tries to keep developers and their users as separate as possible. Developers only get aggregate stats from Apple, they get no personal information on the individuals, and there's no way to send a message through Apple either. The only way to communicate something to your whole user base is to put it in an update's release notes and hope everybody reads it. And of course that doesn't work if you've been banned from the store!
Arnt 10y ago
I14n is fun — to watch for the audience. Apple behaves as if everyone has a credit card and the mapping from credit card to (legal) person is unique. That isn't so in Romania and Apple's heuristics go boom. The same assumption shows up again a little later in the imbroglio: Apple asked him to admit some sort of wrongdoing, however gently, because credit card maps to person to the person they spoke to carries some responsibility, etc. Bogdan rejected, because credit card doesn't map to person and giving someone $25 isn't wrong.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  If you're going to put your credit card in, then you are responsible for the account. If fraud happens on one account you are responsible for, it's not a stretch to believe that fraud could happen on other accounts you are responsible for.
  - Arnt 10y ago
    You're equating "paying for" and "responsible for".
    - eridius 10y ago
      Which is reasonable. If you pay for something, you generally are at least slightly responsible for it. Just because you don't want to be responsible for it doesn't mean you aren't. For example, if I buy a car, hand the keys to a friend, and they go out and commit a crime with the car, I'm going to bet that I'm legally culpable in some fashion.
      - 0xmohit 10y ago
        I buy a gun. Lend [0] it to friend. Friend goes on a killer spree. Can I claim zero responsibility? No. [0] The friend didn't steal the gun.
        LyndsySimon 10y ago
ksec 10y ago
Apple has known this fraud reviews for a long while, we are talking about 1000s and a time line of two years. I am wondering Apple would normally have terminated the account long ago if DASH wasn't a popular app. I read a lot of the previous HN thread saying Apple blackmailing him. This point would be correct if you consider Apple was wrong, and this Guy borrowing his credit card AND account to this "relative" ( Which we still dont know if he/she exist ) committing Fraud bare ZERO responsibility for himself. This is like iFixit tearing up the new AppleTV before NDA and being cocky about it. I mean seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people?
dav- 10y ago
A lot of people here are switching over to Apple's side, but I wouldn't be so quick to throw Kapeli under the bus. Imagine this scenario: You buy your cousin a fancy sword for his birthday one year, which he later uses as a murder weapon against his girlfriend. The police look up the serial number and see that although it's registered under your cousin's name, your credit card was used to purchase it. They arrest your cousin, give him a fair trial, convict him of murder, and place him on death row. You're not in touch with your cousin, so you are completely oblivious to everything which has happened. At this point, SWAT officers storm your home and arrest you, refusing to tell you why. You're thrown in a cell and told you have been placed you on death row, and that their decision is final and can’t be appealed. Your only saving grace is the fact that you happen to be mildly influential in a small community with ties to the government, and you're able to get your side of the story out. Articles are written about you. People are outraged at the government. Others come forward to tell of their dead relatives who had been wrongly executed as well. The Attorney General reads one of these articles and scrambles to do PR damage control. Se has her aid call you and demand that you make a public statement saying that The Government did nothing wrong, that you were the one who purchased the weapon so they were justified in their actions, and that they are so graciously working with you to clear your name. Of course, they completely ignore the part about their negligence and what would have happened if you were just some no-name. --- I believe Apple desperately needs to change their policies. These statements like "We can't provide you with any more information.", "This decision is final.", and lack of communication are wrong. Sure, they are a private company and have the legal right to remove anything from their platform at any time for any reason without any notice or explanation, but that doesn't mean that their actions should be supported and endorsed by the communities of users and developers. Their actions should have consequences in the form of diminished trust, which may be the straw the breaks the camel's back in many developer's and user's choices to continue developing for and using their platform. I will say that it was not smart of Kapeli to publish the phone call; at least not yet. He should have waited a bit longer, and only published it if Apple didn't follow through on their word. However, I still believe Apple is in the wrong here, and Kapeli's only real crime is that of naivety.
synecdoche 10y ago
I find it quite discouraging to see so many harsh sentiments towards the developer. Everything that he did and the publicly stated reasons behind them are plausible. In my view the data so far indicate that he played by the rules. In particular he did a charitable thing to pay somebody else’s Developer Program Membership and donate a device, which there is no rule against. Apple on its side have followed its script which also seems to be entirely plausible and in good faith. However, their course of action does apparently not cover the corner case of contacting all account owners to linked accounts before shutting them down. The agreement allows for third party account payment albeit with some slight inconveniences. In addition, the rules for account linking, and it’s very existence is hidden from the developer party, so (s)he has no responsibility to relate to it, or whatever else is outside of the agreement. People may not like the style the developer has done his part. Nevertheless his story is plausible and consistent, however improbable. Recording phone calls without consent of the other party may be legal in his country; I know it is in mine. Apple has been caught with its pants down but because of the immense power imbalance, the developer, trough no fault of his own, is set to suffer with no recourse, unless there are stings attached. I find it infuriating that he has to do anything at all to set straight a problem he did not cause. From this point whatever bad publicity Apple has incurred they have only them selves to blame. They should at least reverse the account lock, and for reestablishing whatever lost public confidence at a minimum produce an apology for the inconvenience. This is how I understand it from what I have read so far. If any new indications appear to make me change my mind I may do so.
- nicolas_t 10y ago
  I've done exactly that for my brother in law. I donated a device and paid for his program membership with my credit card, so I can completely understand why it might have happened. Now, I'm a bit worried about this issue with Apple linking accounts.

83 points by flyingyeti 10y ago

I've only just run across this. It looks like the story here is: 1. Guy publishes paid app to iTunes 2. App is really good, gets a ton of good reviews 3. Apple decides those reviews must be fraudulent, and pulls his app from the store and tells the guy he has to publicly admit that he committed review fraud to get his app reinstated. 4. People who have bought the app can't download it, guy can't do anything to make his own app available anymore without making a false confession and harming his own reputation. This sort of heavy-handed-but-uncareful approach to "curation" is consistent with my experience publishing to the iOS app store.

joeberon 10y ago
What actually happened: 1. Guy publishes good paid app and gets a tonne of good reviews 2. He helps out a relative by buying an apple developer account for them, giving them a machine to test with 3. Relative also uses same "com.kapeli.*" bundle ID 4. Relative decides to buy 1000 fraudulent reviews 5. Apple tells the relative to stop posting fraud reviews, who refuses 6. Apple terminates both developers accounts since they are all the same information (they look like the same person, same credit card, bank account, test machine, and bundle ID) https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/56uque/apple_dash_developer_had_two_accounts_25_apps_and/?st=iu5jzhpf&sh=fa17ecd2 https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/56uque/apple_dash_de...
- falcolas 10y ago
  Don't forget: 7. Apple offers to reinstate the developer account, iff the user makes a post pointing out how this wasn't Apple's fault.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- okket 10y ago
  I find it hard to believe that this happened without his knowledge. It was his credit card. It was his identifier. I can not imagine he never searched the store for lookalikes or his identifier, etc. See https://software.com/publisher/kapeli https://software.com/publisher/kapeli Just to clarify: On Friday my position was "I have no reason to believe Kapeli is lying and every reason to believe that Apple made a mistake". But after reading and listening to various sources I can not defend this position any more. It makes me sad.
- funkydata 10y ago
  The accounts were linked (same devices, same credit card number): https://london.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a https://london.kapeli.com/downloads/Apple_Call.m4a (edit: direct link to the phone call with the Apple representative) As much as they tend to piss me off for other things. I don't see any wrongdoing from them. It's like accusing them of cutting off the payments to a bakery that operates from the same bank account to that of a drug dealer. Also that kind of blackmail: "You're sure you want that statement to become public?" is plain stupid.
  - joeberon 10y ago
    Why is the developer being so dense? Just being difficult for no reason because he has a stick up his ass. "You're sure you want that statement to become public" it literally makes no sense... All he's done is posting that Apple call has burnt every bridge he had with them, and made Apple look great. Literally they sound very professional on that call and very willing to help him, and instead he is just being unnecessarily difficult.
    - spacehunt 10y ago
      Actually I wouldn't be so sure as to who burnt the bridge first. He posted the recording after Apple went public with their side of the story. What happened to the supposed blog post? Why did Apple go to the press without getting back to him on the draft?
      - cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
        No one knows what happened between the phone call and Apple's press release. So we can't make judgment on that. That said, I was amazed how that guy from Apple was being so patient with this guy being so immature. The Apple guy was trying his best to sort this out, but for every word he said, this Dash guy would keep complaining. This phone call could have ended in 30 seconds but took over 7 minutes because all this guy did was complain (which I think he did for the purpose of making this recording), and I don't even know what you would get from complaining that way when the other person was trying to help you. I would have been pissed if I was that Apple guy.
- spacehunt 10y ago
  > 3. Relative also uses same "com.kapeli.*" bundle ID Just saying: anyone can freely create any App ID they want. I just successfully created "com.google.android.nougat" as a test.
  - okket 10y ago
    Do you expect to use this identifier to make money (in a fraudulent way) and Google not caring over several years?
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    I'm fairly sure you don't have the same user and CC on file as they do.
    - spacehunt 10y ago
      But it proves bundle IDs can only be treated as circumstantial evidence at most.
      - st3v3r 10y ago
        So you combine that with the same CC number on file, and the same development machines, and now you have a very good chance the same person is responsible.
Crosseye_Jack 10y ago
In addition to what joeberon said. After this happened Apple were prepared to welcome him back to the App Store after Apple had learnt of all the facts. Kapei had gone public about this account nuke (which at times is the only way to raise the issue, I remember the times I've had to deal with Googles Support for the play store shudder) and while he didn't know all the details on why his account was nuked the issue has gained some notable press in the dev circles. Because of this Apple had asked for him to release a blog post explaining what had happened, that Apple had correctly detected fake reviews on one account, that account was linked in a couple of ways to him so when Apple nuked the one account they nuked the other along with it and that's is why his account was terminated. Now in my opinion that is a fair request and if I were in his shoes I would of done just that because I can see how Apple could of tied the two accounts together. Others have said that it's Apple Blackmailing him "Post a blog post if you want your account back" and I can see their logic. Apple don't want to be seen as they made a mistake because they did detect fake reviews and took account against the account volating their polices. But they also want it known why his account was caught up in this mess. Were Apple right in nuking both accounts that they deemed were linked together? Should Apple made contact with all parties (it seems the accounts did have at least differnt contact information as he said he got no notice off Apple, Apple say they did contact the dev who's app had the fake reviews) before terminating accounts? Should a public statement explaining the incident be a requirement of reinclusion to the App Store These are questions I have asked myself and have yet to come to a firm decision on myself.
- funkydata 10y ago
  Have you listened to the phone call?
  - Crosseye_Jack 10y ago
    Yes. Well the snippet of the call that was released on his blog anyway.
    - funkydata 10y ago
      There is not blackmailing from Apple. They are offering him a chance to wipe his slate clean if he publicly (since he was the one to go public) acknowledges that what Apple did was justified (and it was). He has to now decide what's more important: his pride or his revenue (https://web.archive.org/web/20150103225308/http://blog.kapeli.com/my-year-in-review-2014 https://web.archive.org/web/20150103225308/http://blog.kapel...), it's that simple.

matt4077 10y ago

This guy has shown quite a talent for self-sabotage. Apple was willing to reinstate him if he'd undo some of the PR damage he'd created by spelling out that he shared the credit card with someone, and that maybe that's not the best idea. Instead, he was enjoying the spotlight so much, he used the opportunity to escalate further, even publishing his phone call with Apple (illegal on one side of that conversation at least). And that narrative includes a healthy dose of goodwill, considering how close to "the dog ate it" that story about the family friend is. A friend who apparently also didn't own any Apple hardware, so they shared that as well. But open sourcing the useless iOS app is apparently a bad idea because his customers don't know how to work XCode, which strikes me as counterintuitive, considering every single one of his customers bought programmer-centric software for Mac.

elpocko 10y ago
I don't know what the app is about, I have never even used an Apple product in all my live. But I admire this guy for not bowing to the demands of Apple. Sticking to your principles, even when that means you're losing money (or, as you put it, "self-sabotage") is not something you see very often nowadays.
- deleted 10y ago
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- dogma1138 10y ago
  He did comply, he just did it in a very odd manner.
erikrothoff 10y ago
From my perspective, most of the PR damage is because a lot of other smaller developers have come out of the woodwork to voice their grievances with Apple. These kind of things happen all the time, and a lot of us feel stood on by the giant Apple. Even though this event sounds like a special case, it still highlights the draconian behavior we deal with. (That's what I would call Apple trying to get him to post a blog post with a "statement" about how wrong he was...) I have never felt so small as when dealing with Apple and the app store.

choicewords 10y ago

I feel bad for this developer. He's clearly quite driven, and that might have inspired his family to reach for the same success. And wanting to help, he gave his card, and now his program has been terminated. I'll keep using Dash, but I hope the dev will clear himself out from someone that is not helping.

bnycum 10y ago

There feels like no right side in this story. * Apple terminated both accounts because of fraudulent activity, but only one account was contacted to let them know of this activity. * Kapeli shared financial information and test devices with this other account, whether it was a relative or not. * Apple said "Hey, write a post telling the whole story and all will be cleared. Just don't say we were at fault." * Kapeli agreed he would draft and send. Kapeli apparently did but never heard back. * Apple had a spokesperson come out that painted a different a picture that basically seem to throw Kapeli under the bus.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Well, Kapeli recorded and uploaded the phone call, shooting himself in the foot.
- bnycum 10y ago
  Call it what you will, but it's the only time in this whole story that hasn't been "he said, she said."
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    And given that nugget of actual evidence, I can decisively say that he definitely screwed himself over. This is how the business world works. Sometimes you can't get the best deal, but it's still in your best interest to accept it regardless. You have to act rationally; you can't just defect (to borrow some game theory parlance -- this literally resembles Prisoner's Dilemma) in the name of "principles." One moderately-crafted blog post later (saying Apple wasn't at fault, and he wasn't either -- his account was "only" linked to the other one), this guy would have been back in business. It's no surprise that this guy hasn't ever worked at a big company before, if you don't swallow your pride every so often and keep your mouth shut, you get kicked to the curb, and it's surreal that he was a self-professed businessman because of how often this happens in the game. He WAS winning, and he would've won (nobody would've taken his PR damage control post seriously, and initially everyone believed his fabricated narrative of innocence), but he royally #$!@ed up because he thought he could've had his cake and eaten it too. I can't under any circumstances imagine any possible outcome to this scenario where Apple would've both admitted wrongdoing AND reinstated his app. Let's not get too greedy here...

edko 10y ago

This whole thing has taught me a lesson. I initially sided with the weaker side because I own a copy of Dash, and it is great software, and because one tends to side with the underdog. After listening to the recording of the conversation, my feeling is that Apple is handling this in a very fair and professional way, and that I was too quick to take sides. I think it is not unreasonable to assume that: same credit card + same hardware = same developer.

gshulegaard 10y ago
I generally agree with you but wanted to point out that: > same credit card + same hardware = same developer is fine as a pseudo-identifier for fraud detection...but I don't think is actually an identifier. It's kind of like someone knowing my social security number and birthday but not actually being me. IMO, Apple should have immediately reinstated the account once contacted about a potential edge case rather than insist that, "they did nothing wrong" because the implication of that is that the above two pieces of information is legally acceptable as personal identification and that the developer _did_ do something wrong. I may not believe Kapeli 100% and his reputation is tarnished some in my eyes, but I don't agree with Apple standing on the notion that CC + device identifiers together are sufficient PII. Fine for fraud detection in a "pseudo-" context...sure...but not enough to deny immediate reinstatement.
- CodeWriter23 10y ago
  You probably use less information to uniquely identify users in apps that you write. Assuming you write apps in the first place.
  - gshulegaard 10y ago
    Generally, I uniquely identify users by PK sequences on a table with UNIQUE constraints on various pieces of User data. So if Apple had made credit cards and/or test devices UNIQUE to a given account then sure...but that's not what they did here did they?

protomyth 10y ago

Ok, so you get a call from Apple that tells you to write a blog post and they will restore your account. You submit the draft blog post. Then, a respected Apple SVP comes out and calls you a criminal and Apple doesn't reply to the draft. What do you do?

0xmohit 10y ago

This is hilarious: My preferred solution would be for a fellow developer to get it back on the App Store, as a free app. Especially because: Open sourcing doesn’t look like a good solution at this time, as most of my users are not iOS developers and are not familiar with compiling an app for their devices. I may be missing something but the author cannot open source the app, but expects a fellow developer to get it on the App Store as a free app. Can the fellow developer pick up the existing app (binary?) and upload it on the app store?

mikeash 10y ago
It would be tough to take the existing app and reupload it, but this guy could certainly provide another developer with a built binary which they would then submit. You'd have to be mad to actually do that, though. We see quite clearly how Apple can react when they think they've been wronged, and who knows what that binary actually contains. Seems like the best approach would be to open source it and convince somebody (perhaps several somebodies) to build it from source and put it on the store for free. Obviously, the source release would need to be under a license that was compatible with an App Store release (i.e. no GPL).
- eridius 10y ago
  The other developer could be given the source. He doesn't need to open source the app in order to give one other developer access to the source.
dogma1138 10y ago
That is likely to get the "fellow developer" banned/suspended with the current App store policy.

cocktailpeanuts 10y ago

I was rooting for him really, because I myself am also at times very frustrated with how Apple treats developers. But I've lost trust in this guy after reading his blog posts and especially the phone call he published. The only reason I can think of why the phone call took over 7 minutes is because he wanted to record it and publish it. Really. If you summarize the phone call. It's basically Apple asking him to publish that his account was indeed linked with the fraud account (not even that he's the one who committed the fraud) and he's working with Apple to resolve it, and rest is this dash guy complaining on and on which is completely unnecessary since Apple already knows that and is saying they understand and want to work with him to "make this right" (The Apple guy literally said "make this right"). Also it is very hard to believe at this point that a "relative" did all this. If I--or any normal person--was in the same situation (I am paying for a relative's developer account with my own credit card with my device and turns out that the relative is committing a fraud), my first reaction would NOT be telling Apple "This has nothing to do with me", but "I had no idea, I am still pissed that you guys didn't notify me, but I also understand your position and will talk to my relative to make sure this doesn't happen. After all, I am the one funding this fraud regardless of whether I was aware or not aware.")

forgottenpass 10y ago
If I--or any normal person--was in the same situation If you define "normal" as "milquetoast and with an Americentric perspective," then maybe. Americans are much more submissive when bureaucratic process presents a roadblock. Especially a roadblock that seems on the face more reasonable with an American view of sharing bank accounts and old hardware. Americans' desire for justice and fairness are paraded around. But their sense of justice is beaten out of them until they have Dwight Schrute-esque compliance "That is the law, according to the rules."
- eridius 10y ago
  Saying "I understand why you linked these accounts and that my relative committed fraud" is not the same thing as being submissive and rolling over, and your portrayal of Americans is rather offensive.

fizzbatter 10y ago

Weird that i find out about this here - wonder if he's able to send an email to Mac Store purchasers like myself. Regardless, i migrated my license, and all seems to be working now. Glad the issue didn't impact me too negatively, and i hope this is true for most of his customers.

mikeash 10y ago
Apple tries to keep developers and their users as separate as possible. Developers only get aggregate stats from Apple, they get no personal information on the individuals, and there's no way to send a message through Apple either. The only way to communicate something to your whole user base is to put it in an update's release notes and hope everybody reads it. And of course that doesn't work if you've been banned from the store!

Arnt 10y ago

I14n is fun — to watch for the audience. Apple behaves as if everyone has a credit card and the mapping from credit card to (legal) person is unique. That isn't so in Romania and Apple's heuristics go boom. The same assumption shows up again a little later in the imbroglio: Apple asked him to admit some sort of wrongdoing, however gently, because credit card maps to person to the person they spoke to carries some responsibility, etc. Bogdan rejected, because credit card doesn't map to person and giving someone $25 isn't wrong.

st3v3r 10y ago
If you're going to put your credit card in, then you are responsible for the account. If fraud happens on one account you are responsible for, it's not a stretch to believe that fraud could happen on other accounts you are responsible for.
- Arnt 10y ago
  You're equating "paying for" and "responsible for".
  - eridius 10y ago
    Which is reasonable. If you pay for something, you generally are at least slightly responsible for it. Just because you don't want to be responsible for it doesn't mean you aren't. For example, if I buy a car, hand the keys to a friend, and they go out and commit a crime with the car, I'm going to bet that I'm legally culpable in some fashion.
    - 0xmohit 10y ago
      I buy a gun. Lend [0] it to friend. Friend goes on a killer spree. Can I claim zero responsibility? No. [0] The friend didn't steal the gun.
      - LyndsySimon 10y ago

ksec 10y ago

Apple has known this fraud reviews for a long while, we are talking about 1000s and a time line of two years. I am wondering Apple would normally have terminated the account long ago if DASH wasn't a popular app. I read a lot of the previous HN thread saying Apple blackmailing him. This point would be correct if you consider Apple was wrong, and this Guy borrowing his credit card AND account to this "relative" ( Which we still dont know if he/she exist ) committing Fraud bare ZERO responsibility for himself. This is like iFixit tearing up the new AppleTV before NDA and being cocky about it. I mean seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people?

dav- 10y ago

A lot of people here are switching over to Apple's side, but I wouldn't be so quick to throw Kapeli under the bus. Imagine this scenario: You buy your cousin a fancy sword for his birthday one year, which he later uses as a murder weapon against his girlfriend. The police look up the serial number and see that although it's registered under your cousin's name, your credit card was used to purchase it. They arrest your cousin, give him a fair trial, convict him of murder, and place him on death row. You're not in touch with your cousin, so you are completely oblivious to everything which has happened. At this point, SWAT officers storm your home and arrest you, refusing to tell you why. You're thrown in a cell and told you have been placed you on death row, and that their decision is final and can’t be appealed. Your only saving grace is the fact that you happen to be mildly influential in a small community with ties to the government, and you're able to get your side of the story out. Articles are written about you. People are outraged at the government. Others come forward to tell of their dead relatives who had been wrongly executed as well. The Attorney General reads one of these articles and scrambles to do PR damage control. Se has her aid call you and demand that you make a public statement saying that The Government did nothing wrong, that you were the one who purchased the weapon so they were justified in their actions, and that they are so graciously working with you to clear your name. Of course, they completely ignore the part about their negligence and what would have happened if you were just some no-name. --- I believe Apple desperately needs to change their policies. These statements like "We can't provide you with any more information.", "This decision is final.", and lack of communication are wrong. Sure, they are a private company and have the legal right to remove anything from their platform at any time for any reason without any notice or explanation, but that doesn't mean that their actions should be supported and endorsed by the communities of users and developers. Their actions should have consequences in the form of diminished trust, which may be the straw the breaks the camel's back in many developer's and user's choices to continue developing for and using their platform. I will say that it was not smart of Kapeli to publish the phone call; at least not yet. He should have waited a bit longer, and only published it if Apple didn't follow through on their word. However, I still believe Apple is in the wrong here, and Kapeli's only real crime is that of naivety.

synecdoche 10y ago

I find it quite discouraging to see so many harsh sentiments towards the developer. Everything that he did and the publicly stated reasons behind them are plausible. In my view the data so far indicate that he played by the rules. In particular he did a charitable thing to pay somebody else’s Developer Program Membership and donate a device, which there is no rule against. Apple on its side have followed its script which also seems to be entirely plausible and in good faith. However, their course of action does apparently not cover the corner case of contacting all account owners to linked accounts before shutting them down. The agreement allows for third party account payment albeit with some slight inconveniences. In addition, the rules for account linking, and it’s very existence is hidden from the developer party, so (s)he has no responsibility to relate to it, or whatever else is outside of the agreement. People may not like the style the developer has done his part. Nevertheless his story is plausible and consistent, however improbable. Recording phone calls without consent of the other party may be legal in his country; I know it is in mine. Apple has been caught with its pants down but because of the immense power imbalance, the developer, trough no fault of his own, is set to suffer with no recourse, unless there are stings attached. I find it infuriating that he has to do anything at all to set straight a problem he did not cause. From this point whatever bad publicity Apple has incurred they have only them selves to blame. They should at least reverse the account lock, and for reestablishing whatever lost public confidence at a minimum produce an apology for the inconvenience. This is how I understand it from what I have read so far. If any new indications appear to make me change my mind I may do so.

nicolas_t 10y ago
I've done exactly that for my brother in law. I donated a device and paid for his program membership with my credit card, so I can completely understand why it might have happened. Now, I'm a bit worried about this issue with Apple linking accounts.