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Why a Brit chose to start a business in Berlin
- drumhead 10y agoShe must also speak German right?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- jorgemf 10y agoShe must learn German. The thing with Berlin is that there are a lot of startups with foreign people, and a lot of Germans speak English. But when you want to do normal day things as going to the market you need German to understand what are you buying and to talk with the people. It is not like other countries where you cannot get a job or life if you don't speak the language. You can get a job in Berlin as a English speaker but you must learn the local language for the day to day things.
- hellofunk 10y agoI agree, my experience after a week of work in Berlin was that a lot of the restaurants I visited, the waitress couldn't speak English at all. Or taking a cab was sometimes quite an effort to communicate as well. Even more strange, Berlin (and perhaps much of Germany, I don't know), places much greater emphasis on cash than on electronic payments like credit cards. I gave a credit card to a vendor once and they looked like they couldn't figure out what it was. In fact, as they were trying to understand it, I motioned that they were in fact studying it upside down! Other restaurants would tell me it was the first credit card they had seen in weeks, and the owner simply hadn't bothered to bring the credit card machine in from his house in a long time. Not a problem, just a bit strange to me. Berlin is a neat place, though, and I love German food (and beer) a lot, but it cannot be overstated how you quickly come to realize that you currently take for granted speaking the same language as everyone around you, and unless you know German already, that convenience will evaporate immediately upon moving there. Even all the Holywood movies and U.S. TV shows are dubbed into German -- it is the largest overdub market in the entertainment industry, because Germans generally place low emphasis on learning other languages (just like Americans do).
- DasIch 10y agoCash is much more popular however another big factor is that credit cards aren't really a thing. Instead Germany has its own system of EC cards which are directly tied to your bank account (which most people get as a child here) and work more like debit cards. The only reason to have a credit card as a German is for buying this outside of Germany.
- elcapitan 10y agoAnd for buying stuff on the internet - I use it more for that than when travelling.
- justanton 10y agoI live in Germany, and I always wondered: how Germans buy online and/or book hotels/tickets online, if most of them don't have credit cards and only have this EC-Karte?
- elcapitan 10y agoI have a credit card for that, but if I have the option, I always use Paypal. There are often other payment options though, like "Sofortüberweisung", paying on account or SEPA bank transfers (the last two more typically for b2b though).
- ThePadawan 10y agoThis differs quite a big on the size of the respective business (of sales). Amazon.de e.g. offers the choice of * credit card (as internationally) * direct withdrawal (meaning you give them your bank account details and they withdraw the amount directly - sort of sketchy from the customer's point of view, but no different from credit cards - if anything goes awry, you just challenge the charge directly with the bank instead of the card issuer) * bill-based (generally only for small amounts or trusted customers - might involve a "credit score" check from Schufa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schufa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schufa) to deter fraud)
- izolate 10y ago
- ptaipale 10y agoLearning enough German for daily things is probably not a problem at all, but can you deal with authorities (business licenses, taxes, mandatory reports etc) in English or very broken German?
- matt4077 10y agoMany speak english (except, for some reason, those at the immigration desk). Other stuff can be done online, in English. If people are really nervous, they usually find someone to come along and translate, or they meet someone in the waiting room.
- elcapitan 10y agoTo be honest, those things can be pretty involved here even for me as German, so it probably makes sense to just use someone who does that as a service (obvious for taxes, but most likely also available for business registration etc) rather than investing your time in understand bureaucratic German.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHi there - I'm the author of this piece. I don't actually speak German. I'm trying to improve - however, I wouldn't say it's required in Germany to start something on your own. Many of the meetups are in English and everyone I've spoken to is fluent. I think it's another story if you're trying to get a job though...
- k__ 10y agoYes, the hardest thing is probably to get a flat and register a business without speaking German and these are one time things, no ongoing stuff. The start-up scene speaks English fluently and buying stuff etc. doesn't need much talking. The start-up I work with has 2 employees who don't speak German at all and they say it's only a problem when they are in smaller villages.
- allendoerfer 10y agoRegistering a business is literally going to the "Gewerbeamt" and answering their questions about what you want to do. You will then be contacted by the tax authorities. I would then just search for a tax adviser, who speaks English. If you want to incorporate a business, you do not necessarily have to do it in Germany, it is the EU after all.
- k__ 10y agoAh sure, yes I forgot that you can create a company in the UK and simply run it from Berlin without much hassle.
- petre 10y agoWhy not start a business in Central or South Eastern Europe? Most cities are even cheaper than Berlin and still open to young people. Plus people are fluent in Englush, except maybe in Hungary.
- sotojuan 10y agoPeople want to move to Berlin and the city has a great tech scene from what I can gather.
- k__ 10y agoBefore I click the link: Berlin is cheaper than London. Edit: And I was right, haha. While London is one of the most expensive cities in the world, Berlin is cheap for German conditions. At least the parts that haven't been gentrified yet ;) Berlin is really cool and has lots of alternative people and seems to be the only german city with a bigger start-up scene, but it's poor AF. I'm living in Stuttgart and while I prefer to hang in Berlin, the money is in the south.
- pjc50 10y agoYup. Although I would note that there are also cheaper UK cities! Consider Liverpool or Bristol, for example.
- ptaipale 10y agoThe peculiarity of Berlin is that it has lower cost than many other German cities. This is unusual, because typically you pay a premium for working in the capital of the nation. In Berlin, that is explained by the history (West Berlin was an enclave within DDR and the capital of BRD was in Bonn; Berlin was subsidized and had lots of relatively cheap housing which is not yet fully priced up 25 years after German unification).
- Gravityloss 10y agoIf your customer is a German business, and you would like to visit them, it's very likely their headquarters are in West Germany, which is far away. So you don't have much country offices of multinational companies in Berlin. It's very different from other countries' biggest cities. I guess it works better for pure internet companies that sell directly to consumers.
- ptaipale 10y agoThis is true, but I expect the situation will slowly change, and more business will concentrate in Berlin, because the federal administration is a big customer now that more of it is relocating in Berlin.
- smegel 10y agoI wish I had a startup and I could just throw a dart at a map and go live and work there.
- k__ 10y agoWell, someone who could live and start a business in London probably has much money to start with.
- akanet 10y agoWhile the author makes good points about the relative affordability of Berlin, one does have to wonder what the general plan for newsletter profitability is.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHey! I'm the author! This is pretty cool to be number one on Hacker News. The idea behind the newsletter is to build a brand which makes liberal metropolitans comfortable with hearing viewpoints outside their own. Then I can monetise it! :)
- zigzigzag 10y agoNo offence intended as I enjoyed reading your article and it wasn't really about your business, but if a liberal metropolitan wanted to experience viewpoints outside their own, couldn't they just browse to dailymail.co.uk? It's free and monetised already. If the idea is something more highbrow, again, surely they could just subscribe to the Telegraph? Or watch Fox News? Or heck, just use reddit? Lots of different viewpoints there. Providing people with news that violates their own political biases and then getting them to pay for it seems very difficult. The more open minded ones who are willing to pay for views different to their own have lots of places they can seek out such views already.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoI would say that my target market aren't really familiar with twitter - let alone Reddit. Also it's just a time thing - I spend about 15 - 20 hours researching each newsletter.
- hellofunk 10y agoWow, 20 square meters for €480? That doesn't register as affordable on my books (even with utilities included).
- scrollaway 10y agoYeah. If you're shooting for affordability, Athens is a much better bet. 20sqm studios below €100/month in the heart of the capital. (Good luck getting decent internet, though.)
- icebraining 10y agoThere's Lisbon, as a middle point. 300-400€/m for a 60m² and you can get a 1Gbps/100mbps connection to your home.
- uola 10y agoFrom what I've heard Lisbon is about the same cost as Berlin. But the economy is worse, the tax system seems more complex and it's less accessible to foreigners. I guess the weather is nicer, but the location is worse. To legitimately compete with Berlin I think one really has to offer something special, otherwise Berlin wins by default in the low-medium cost category. Lisbon would still be on my shortlist for European bootstrap cities, but there are also at least half a dozen other cities that could be equivalent.
- regularjack 10y agoWhy do you say it's less accessible to foreigners?
- uola 10y agoFor people to choose something it first have to be a realistic option. Berlin is much more established as an international and "tech" city. You hear about people moving there all the time. For whatever problem you'll face there's bound to be someone else who has done it. When it comes to moving you don't want to be a pioneer and spend thousands of euros finding out if it's doable and ending up not liking it. Being in the same boat as other people helps with that uncertainty.
- rms_returns 10y agoDoes this have anything to do with BREXIT?
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHa - I'm the author - I would say that Brexit is a minor factor for leaving. The main one is affordability. Also Berlin is more fun...
- simonhorlick 10y agoSo Brexit does impact your decision? I'm interested to know why, and how, it impacts you.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHello Simon! I'd say no not really - I did think that I may only have 2 years to travel around Europe. But it was a minor reason.
- branchless 10y agoLet me guess: because the UK is a rentier hell hole?
- rurban 10y agoDresden is even better. I moved from Houston, TX to Dresden and I'm very happy with my choice. Technically it's more interesting, as the University and high tech companies here are much more advanced (i.e the l4 microkernel is from here), prices are the same, and Dresden is a much more beautiful town than ugly Berlin. Lots of English speaking foreigners, and people are more friendly. For startup's there's only one or two meetup points and helpers/investors but still better than Houston or Austin. If going for cheap, Wroclaw or Prague would be better.
- hellofunk 10y ago> Dresden is a much more beautiful town than ugly Berlin. That is certainly subjective (and offensive). I have not been to Dresden but I found Berlin to be quite an interesting aesthetic environment and hardly sore on the eyes. It has huge, lovely green parks and I find the wide open spaces throughout the town rather refreshing.
- danielbln 10y agoIt's a big city, there are ugly parts, and there are pretty parts. Same for Dresden, it has some really lovely buildings, but anything that was built after the 50s is ugly as sin.
- Normal_gaussian 10y agoHow much of Dresden was rebuilt 45-60 and how much was rebuilt later? I presume most land was made usable pretty quickly however I can't imagine they were high quality long term buildings. I need to go to Dresden.
- Grishnakh 10y agoHe's probably talking about the side of Berlin that used to be under DDR rule. It's no secret, and certainly not offensive, to say that architecture during the Iron Curtain days was pretty horrible.
- DasIch 10y ago
- 500and4 10y agoFor clarity: This is not my work. The author is my most excellent friend alicelthwaite (http://echochamber.club/ http://echochamber.club/)
- doc_holliday 10y ago"My business is called The Echo Chamber Club — we curate articles that counter a traditional metropolitan viewpoint and send them to our hundreds of subscribers. It makes sense that I remove myself from London to understand new points of view and communicate them with my subscribers." With regards to "liberal metropolitan" viewpoints, Berlin won't challenge you anymore than London did. It's just another global city where inside your group of people you are likely to meet (given what you work in) they will more than likely be liberal and metroplitan.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHmmm I kind of disagree there. I'm having to make new friends and get out of my comfort zone. In time I'm going to start exploring other areas. I'm really keen to get collaborators on board for instance. Nothing is perfect - this was just the best move for me at the time :)
- roymurdock 10y agoAs someone who is looking to make moves soon (possibly international), I quite enjoyed your post. RIP Fabric...you'll be sorely missed. Now you'll have to wait in line for Berghain. Best of luck on the new business!
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHaha Berghain is yet to let me in. I wonder what the record is for consecutive refusals? I'll try and beat it... :)
- doc_holliday 10y agoOh, you'll meet loads of great people and it is an experience getting out of your comfort zone and leaving behind old friends in the city you grew up in. I was just meaning in regards to differing opinions to liberal metropolitanism it will be very similar to London. Best of luck in your endeavour!
- enqk 10y ago
- jfaucett 10y agoThe benefits she mentions are legitimate, even though two of them have nothing to do with Berlin and could be obtained by moving to any new city. (no distractions, and changing environment equals greater creativity) So it really boils down to this for her: Berlin is affordable and it has a good meetup scene. Affordable is relative, salaries are lower in Berlin than in many other cities and the cost of living has been on a rise as more people move in, but at the moment she is absolutely right about this much: cost of living is still significantly lower in Berlin than in London (https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin&displayCurrency=EUR https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...) [1] Depending on your product Berlin can be good or bad. I think its almost always a great fit if your product targets the German market initially and you want to eventually expand out from there. The other way around will be much more difficult, mainly because you're sitting in Germany and you're whole business side of operations must be run in German, under German law, rules, and regulations. Having said this, as far as her specific product idea goes, I could see Berlin being a good fit for her. The super young hipster culture is pervasive throughout Berlin, and it seems like an idea that would work well in that market. 1. I worked on a German startup for 3 years in Berlin
- alicelthwaite 10y agoThanks - I agree with everything you've just said. The thing I didn't mention is that I love the Berlin culture. I knew I'd feel at home here. So there's a subjective reason too.
- cheriot 10y agoThe conversation focuses on price, but the other points are key. 1. There's a huge tech scene in Berlin and it's easy to meet bright people. 2. People want to live in Berlin. The art and music scene attract people. Affordable alone can be found in many places. Combined with 1 and 2 is a pretty unique proposition.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHey Cheriot! I totally agree!
- TamDenholm 10y agoGenuine question, Whats the business model for The Echo Chamber Club? I've always seen newsletters as a marketing tool for a business, rather than a business itself. Very interested to how you'd make money with it as a standalone business.
- alicelthwaite 10y agoHey Tam - thanks for your question. So my target market don't generally want to hear the topics I'm posting. They have to trust that I'm as liberal as they are before they start taking me seriously. So it became clear that the most important part of the ECC was to create a trusted brand. Otherwise, I spent about a year trying to figure out a solution to the filter bubble. I was looking at RSS feeds, new types of algorithms, and it was all very complicated. The idea of a newsletter MVP made sense. After I get to about 5k subscribers I'll be putting on events - with the aim of creating a B2B qualitative research firm. But that's a long way off - who knows where the journey will take me. Feel free to add me on twitter so we can discuss more - would love your thoughts! @alicelthwaite
- TamDenholm 10y agoThanks for the reply, very interesting.
- justinclift 10y agoJust to check, you've seen this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12557500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12557500
- alicelthwaite 10y agoOh dear - I've since moved hosting providers. Are you having issues now?
- justinclift 10y agoWasn't me. Just pointing it out in case you wanted to follow up. ;)
- rubber_duck 10y agoWhy Western Europe if you want to get cost of living down and move somewhere ? Eastern Europe is 1/3 cost of living, usually has very good tax rates (Bulgaria has 10% flat tax on income + local tax for example, Hungary is close AFAIK) and there are startup accelerators trying to take advantage of that. If you're using your own money to fund it and have customers who don't care about your location you'll have much easier time finding employees, especially non-technical staff like art/marketing/sales/customer support.
- Normal_gaussian 10y agoQuality of life varies greatly between countries. That said I would certainly consider Bratislava if I was moving East. Its proximity to Austria (Vienna in particular) means that you can, in many ways, have the best of both worlds.
- rubber_duck 10y agoI think in most capitals I've seen quality of life isn't that much worse, don't get me wrong it's not really on the same level as Paris or London (rural areas on the other hand - just don't make any random country trips on your own), but at the same time it's not like moving to Syria or something like that - for example I find Vienna to be quite unsafe and unappealing, compared to say Zagreb (related to that I actually know a guy who commutes from Bratislava to Vienna for work - the rent difference alone covers the commute). It depends on what you want, but you can actually compete for staff even if you have < million € in seed capital, rent and office space is cheap, etc. if your goal is to bootstrap your company then moving to Eastern Europe can help you with that.
- VeejayRampay 10y agoHow do you define "very good tax rates" though? Is it the same thing as "low taxes"? Are high taxes in Northern Europe "bad taxes"? Taxes are not theft you know, they're supposed to buy you and your fellow citizens things (health care, infrastructure, cheap education, services, etc), some of them highly beneficial to a startup.
- jkxyz 10y agoI'm planning on moving from London to Berlin within 6 months (I'm British), and mostly for the same reasons (RIP fabric). I have a couple of German citizens as friends who are also seriously considering doing the same. My main concern is how to avoid joining the English-speaking bubble. Although nothing has charged my motivation for learning German more than the recent government responses to Brexit. It does feel a bit ironic that I'm fleeing to Germany from a fascist government.
- flukus 10y agoRespecting a democratic vote is fascist?
- jkxyz 10y agoNot exactly. But there are definitely overtones of nationalism and anti-liberalism in what ministers were saying at the Conservative party conference and in recent anti-immigration proposals. They're also insisting on denying MPs and the public a vote on the exact terms of our withdrawal when many people are calling the referendum irresponsible and the result a flippant protest. So currently "respecting" this vote is not exactly the height of liberal democracy either.
- woodcut 10y agoWelcome to Berlin. :) I came to Berlin roughly 5 years ago before the investment started pouring in and most startups were existenz grundungs, this is when you get 50k from the government and you underpay some interns to build your MVP. It was pretty shabby back then, and things have changed dramatically in the intervening years, but most people came for this vague idea of living cheaply and doing what they want - you could say they washed up here as tourists and stayed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but these people are being replaced with people coming here for startup jobs that pay real salaries. It used to be that ~500 euros a month was a good startup job, now it's more like 4-5k. All of this change is happening while Berlins administration is still the bureaucratic and slow machine that it always has been, they haven't built affordable housing in 25 years, there's no plan on how to reduce congestion or prevent gentrification from wiping out existing communities. Registration takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a foreigner and have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day. It's nice that people still see a future here, but i take an issue with such a rosy picture of what it's like to live here, because it really isn't the case.
- GunboatDiplomat 10y ago>Registration takes ~3-5 months to get an appointment, god forbid you're a foreigner and have to also register at the ausländerbehörde and wait from 3am for the 1 of 50 tickets available that day. Your bureaucracy makes American bureaucracy seem amazingly efficient in comparison. I did not know such a thing was possible outside defunct communist states.
- woodcut 10y agoin part it's since the refugee crisis, there just aren't enough skilled administrators in germany to handle the number of people migrating here. That said, once you've got the paperwork, things are relatively easy. What i mean by registration is that you have to register where you live, to do that you'll need your passport, copy of the contract and a letter from the landlord saying you have the right to live there. Sounds easy, but then not many landlords will rent to you if you're not planning on staying a long time or you don't have a permanent contract for your job... you need the registration for everything here, you don't really exist without it, you can't get health insurance, you can't pay tax, you can't be paid your salary by a company, and you'll find it hard to open a bank account.
- martiuk 10y agoWhy didn't you move to Birmingham?
- aibottle 10y ago"Business": Weekly Newsletter. BS Medium strikes again.