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> The car computer will then silently compare when it would have braked to the driver action and upload that to the Tesla database...whether Autopilot is turned
by robojamison 10y ago
> The car computer will then silently compare when it would have braked to the driver action and upload that to the Tesla database...whether Autopilot is turned on or off, then that object is added to the geocoded whitelist.
(emphasis mine)
This has interesting privacy implications. I am not a Tesla owner, but I imagine that by enabling Autopilot you consent to providing Tesla with diagnostic, error, and sensor data. But what about those who have not enabled this feature? Their Tesla will automatically phone home with data regarding their location and surroundings regardless of whether or not they have consented to this?
- bwilliams18 10y agoBy installing the autopilot software update, or purchasing the car with the radar installed I'm sure you signed away these rights.
- sachingulaya 10y agoAll of the cars since late 2014 have autopilot hardware installed. This allows purchasers to activate autopilot after the sale of the vehicle.
- archagon 10y agoI feel like Tesla is a super creepy company that people aren't giving enough scrutiny to just because their tech is so great. What was that story about them remotely locking out a hacker from snooping around in their software? What about all those articles where they do an uncomfortably accurate play-by-play of someone's accident? I'm not comfortable with the idea of a company having that much access to private data.
- digdigdag 10y agoI don't quite see how it is "creepy". Tesla's autopilot is not a requirement for operating their vehicle. It is an experimental value add that you have to agree in order to be included in the program. As with any beta testing of software, high-fidelity diagnostic data is a must, especially in these circumstance as you have no other way of simulating the various scenarios people find themselves in when driving.
- archagon 10y agoI could be wrong, but it seems they phone home for all sorts of things even without autopilot enabled.
- yessql 10y agoThey log everything whether you opt in or not. But as a cell phone user, I feel like I have opted out of all location privacy already. I'll trade my location privacy for awesome car capabilities.
- Fej 10y agoSoftware that can end lives should not be beta tested on customers. Full stop. In no way is it acceptable to give customers "experimental" software, overhype it, and disclaim responsibility when it inevitably fails.
- Piskvorrr 10y ago...which gets you Toyota brake pedal software, which, in retrospect, doesn't look tested at all. Better? (Deadlier for sure)
- TorKlingberg 10y agoMost people don't own a Tesla anyway. It's a little harder to avoid being tracked by Google, Apple, Facebook and Microsoft.
- jeffwass 10y agoWhat surprises me is how (at least here in HN) there was a general feeling of annoyance when Apple tracked user locations with Apple Maps to identify traffic patterns, even though Google did the same for Google maps. But now with Tesla user-tracking, people seem to be actively psyched at being tracked by Tesla.
- maxerickson 10y agoIt's been a fracas with Google too. Take this discussion (the first substantial one I dug up on the topic): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873032 There's someone making the same consent argument (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873947 ) and lots of people expressing ambivalence and more about sharing the data with Google. As far as how people are responding to Tesla doing it, you did reply to a comment questioning their practices without evening being exposed to them.
- jimrandomh 10y agoPeople are more comfortable with data collection when they understand what the data will be used for and agree that the use is valuable to society. If the use is unclear or doesn't seem important, then people worry that the real reason is something creepy that's been left unsaid. In this case, people mostly agree that R&D in self-driving cars is important, and can clearly see how this data helps with that. Whereas identifying traffic in Google Maps/Apple Maps feels less important, and the connection between location tracking and detecting traffic takes a little more work to understand.
- jjn2009 10y agoPerceived value is greater. Everyone wants self driving cars to be easily accessible and without human intervention. I'd give up my data personally for that goal. Its certainly more valuable than having Google direct me to a route which is 2 minutes faster.
- stingraycharles 10y agoI would assume that this is because it is already kinda-sorta common behavior for software to track this kind of data, while this is an entirely new thing for cars.
- shostack 10y agoI wonder if/how insurance companies will get this data. It is only a temporary concern until we have fully autonomous vehicles, but still a concern.
- ChuckMcM 10y agoI was really fascinated by that comment as well, but not for privacy reasons, I believe that while it would be able to peruse server logs at Tesla to understand where a particular car was at a particular time, that is no worse than OnStar or current phone GPS tracking. The interesting thing is the data set of watching humans drive and using models to drive for the same place. This only works if the "place" is not notably different from the model, say a semi has hit the overhead and its now hanging into the roadway, can the car distinguish between a sign hanging sideways and one that is attached normally? Severe storms and down power lines is another interesting question. Does autopilot recognize the environment has been grossly modified and refuse to drive? Earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, all can grossly change the environment at a particular geocoded location. What if a Tesla owner's club decides to use a piece of highway 58 out in Nevada as a race strip? Does autopilot assume that when you hit this point you are supposed to stomp the accelerator and go as fast as you can? (ok that is a stretch) It's the data without the knowledge. Something machine learning is bad at (hence turning chat bots into vitriol spewing fascists). VERY interesting times.
- grecy 10y ago> say a semi has hit the overhead and its now hanging into the roadway, can the car distinguish between a sign hanging sideways and one that is attached normally? Severe storms and down power lines is another interesting question.... Earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, all can grossly change the environment at a particular geocoded location. Humans are not perfect in those situations either, and cause plenty of fatal crashes. Remember, autopilot doesn't have to be anywhere near perfect. It only has to be better than humans are now.
- Fej 10y agoTo be honest, it really has to be close to perfect - else, the public will deem the technology killer, even if it is in fact safer.
- URSpider94 10y agoI think that's what we are going to find out. So far, I haven't seen anyone with pitchforks and torches demanding Tesla be stopped after the first autopilot fatality. I used to think about it the way you do, but lately I think if they can make the numbers work out, then there will be some insurance companies willing to step in and turn risk of lawsuits into a manageable cost of doing business.
- robbiep 10y agoThis has been discussed extensively in the past - apparently the ownership contract includes the downloading of all that information most constantly
- joosters 10y agoI thought that Tesla have always been tracking their cars, autopilot or not. IIRC, there was a story from over a year ago where Tesla complained about a car review, citing the data that the reviewer's car had transmitted. This included location information, battery power, etc. Perhaps there is a way to opt out of this - but also, if you opt out, do Tesla disable features of the car?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]