7 ms·

Recently I got an email about a job that seemed interesting. It's a well known company that used to be a startup but is now a mature company. I went to the jo

Recently I got an email about a job that seemed interesting. It's a well known company that used to be a startup but is now a mature company. I went to the job description page: 8+ years experience, tech stack I'm familiar with, mostly backend work, seems ok so far. Then I get to the last line. Open office, has video games, happy hours, other typical things designed to attract those in their 20s. It's all a hidden message screaming, if you're old, don't apply. And they want someone with 8+ years experience! It's ridiculous.

Swizec 10y ago
o/ 29 year old here, 20 years coding, 13 years of people paying me to code. We exist. I sure hope companies don't have that as a base expectation, though.
- sp332 10y ago
  That you exist isn't the problem. The problem is discrimination based on age.
  - Swizec 10y ago
    Naturally. All I'm saying that it IS possible to find someone in their 20's with 8+ years of experience.
    - sidlls 10y ago
      Depends on what you mean by experience. I'm skeptical, to say the least. No doubt there are 29 year olds who have been "coding" for 20 years and being paid for it for 13 of them. That's different from having experience.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      8 years of experience? Or the same year of experience 8 times over?
ardit33 10y ago
I am sorry, but what is wrong with having video games in the office? At both my previous companies I played games time to time, with co-workers. 15 mins of playing Fifa with a co-worker end s up both relaxing, and productive as you both bond and hash out things, and often much better than boring meeting. I am 35 btw. Also, our CEO regularly played as well. I have been at an office/environment (Amazon), with cubicles, or offices, people coming in, going home at 5:30pm, no social time, nothing interesting. I thought that was awful, and I would never work in a place that doesn't understand that creativity requires some play time as well.
- Bahamut 10y ago
  I usually find there being too much to do to spend time playing video games or whatever at the job, unless there is a company after-hours event. I'm not exactly on the younger side either, being 32 and having only been working professionally for almost 4 years. It's not that I don't love games either - if the game industry paid comparatively, I would certainly consider going into that industry, and have plenty of very successful friends in it. That said, I don't view the presence of these things as discrimination - if you don't want to participate, don't. Nobody is forcing you, and if they want to falsify performance reviews/withhold promotions when you're clearly outperforming your peers/etc., then I'd get down and dirty letting them know that their behavior is crap, and then job search because I don't want to work for a company like that.
- ryanSrich 10y ago
  It's not the video games themselves. It's the culture. It's a way to keep young employees in the office longer. It's not uncommon for these places to have people roll in around 10am and stay until 10pm. That's not a place I want to work at, and I'm not even 30 yet. But you can bet your life savings on a company firing anyone for not playing this game. That's why I won't work for a place with videogames.
  - reddytowns 10y ago
    Wait, they fire people for not playing videogames?
skookum 10y ago
You're probably seeing a hidden message where there isn't one. The culture/benefits sections of most job descriptions are generic and that generic portion of the hiring message is tailored to the majority of hires the company is likely to attract via job postings. For most tech companies that is going to be candidates directly or recently our of university, and the majority of that majority does perceive/expect many of these types of office perks as hallmarks of a successful tech company. The message isn't intended to exclude you or me. The message is intended to hook the easily hookable.
GauntletWizard 10y ago
You know who made the most use of the kegerator and the board game night at my last business? The sixty-year-old dude with a wife and two kids. He spent one-and-a-half nights a week at the office drinking, playing games, and socializing and was otherwise headed home by five. He made good use of that networking time, though, and partially because the tooling was there; he'd not have had a chance to interact with the office full of twentysomethings if he'd not had work provided socialization tools and had to go out out to interact. It didn't exactly work - he eventually was fired in a really bad bit of house-training for cronies... But he was very popular. The tooling you're reading as a young people's perk is actually a pretty good neutral ground: if work didn't have a kegerator, I'd probably not go out, I'd be at home, not working and not thinking about work.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Let's see, most recent environment like that had me at late 40s (at the time), two guys mid 40s, the boss late 40s, and some young uns. We all had nerf guns, regular silliness, and fairly regular beer+gaming sessions with the app company down the hall. They had a couple of full size multi game arcade machines, and a console. :) I'll be old when they nail the lid shut :p I'd rather talk about games, motorbikes and beer than golf any day thanks. Unless you mean willingness to give up weekends for dubious reasons and pull stupid hours regularly - then on that score I've been old since my 20s. That said I have experienced age discrimination - tech is rife with it, but never if I got past HR or recruiting types. I don't know why tech makes it more likely - it's not like every or even most companies are looking for the naive to work 10am-10pm daily.
mahyarm 10y ago
When I worked at a place with the average age was mid 30s and being mid 20s made me one of the youngest, we all played a lot of lunch time foosball and ping pong, left the video games untouched and were still an 'old' person friendly place.
mwfunk 10y ago
I would have a similarly visceral reaction to that line, but I wouldn't interpret it as a "keep out" sign for older developers. Rather, it's a gigantic red flag for wiser developers of any age. They're looking for people they can trick into working 60-80 hour weeks, every week. Those are probably going to be mostly recent grads in their 20s, but they're actually selecting for naïveté and the lack of a personal life rather than youth.

Swizec 10y ago

o/ 29 year old here, 20 years coding, 13 years of people paying me to code. We exist. I sure hope companies don't have that as a base expectation, though.

sp332 10y ago
That you exist isn't the problem. The problem is discrimination based on age.
- Swizec 10y ago
  Naturally. All I'm saying that it IS possible to find someone in their 20's with 8+ years of experience.
  - sidlls 10y ago
    Depends on what you mean by experience. I'm skeptical, to say the least. No doubt there are 29 year olds who have been "coding" for 20 years and being paid for it for 13 of them. That's different from having experience.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    8 years of experience? Or the same year of experience 8 times over?

ardit33 10y ago

I am sorry, but what is wrong with having video games in the office? At both my previous companies I played games time to time, with co-workers. 15 mins of playing Fifa with a co-worker end s up both relaxing, and productive as you both bond and hash out things, and often much better than boring meeting. I am 35 btw. Also, our CEO regularly played as well. I have been at an office/environment (Amazon), with cubicles, or offices, people coming in, going home at 5:30pm, no social time, nothing interesting. I thought that was awful, and I would never work in a place that doesn't understand that creativity requires some play time as well.

Bahamut 10y ago
I usually find there being too much to do to spend time playing video games or whatever at the job, unless there is a company after-hours event. I'm not exactly on the younger side either, being 32 and having only been working professionally for almost 4 years. It's not that I don't love games either - if the game industry paid comparatively, I would certainly consider going into that industry, and have plenty of very successful friends in it. That said, I don't view the presence of these things as discrimination - if you don't want to participate, don't. Nobody is forcing you, and if they want to falsify performance reviews/withhold promotions when you're clearly outperforming your peers/etc., then I'd get down and dirty letting them know that their behavior is crap, and then job search because I don't want to work for a company like that.
ryanSrich 10y ago
It's not the video games themselves. It's the culture. It's a way to keep young employees in the office longer. It's not uncommon for these places to have people roll in around 10am and stay until 10pm. That's not a place I want to work at, and I'm not even 30 yet. But you can bet your life savings on a company firing anyone for not playing this game. That's why I won't work for a place with videogames.
- reddytowns 10y ago
  Wait, they fire people for not playing videogames?

skookum 10y ago

You're probably seeing a hidden message where there isn't one. The culture/benefits sections of most job descriptions are generic and that generic portion of the hiring message is tailored to the majority of hires the company is likely to attract via job postings. For most tech companies that is going to be candidates directly or recently our of university, and the majority of that majority does perceive/expect many of these types of office perks as hallmarks of a successful tech company. The message isn't intended to exclude you or me. The message is intended to hook the easily hookable.

GauntletWizard 10y ago

You know who made the most use of the kegerator and the board game night at my last business? The sixty-year-old dude with a wife and two kids. He spent one-and-a-half nights a week at the office drinking, playing games, and socializing and was otherwise headed home by five. He made good use of that networking time, though, and partially because the tooling was there; he'd not have had a chance to interact with the office full of twentysomethings if he'd not had work provided socialization tools and had to go out out to interact. It didn't exactly work - he eventually was fired in a really bad bit of house-training for cronies... But he was very popular. The tooling you're reading as a young people's perk is actually a pretty good neutral ground: if work didn't have a kegerator, I'd probably not go out, I'd be at home, not working and not thinking about work.

anexprogrammer 10y ago

Let's see, most recent environment like that had me at late 40s (at the time), two guys mid 40s, the boss late 40s, and some young uns. We all had nerf guns, regular silliness, and fairly regular beer+gaming sessions with the app company down the hall. They had a couple of full size multi game arcade machines, and a console. :) I'll be old when they nail the lid shut :p I'd rather talk about games, motorbikes and beer than golf any day thanks. Unless you mean willingness to give up weekends for dubious reasons and pull stupid hours regularly - then on that score I've been old since my 20s. That said I have experienced age discrimination - tech is rife with it, but never if I got past HR or recruiting types. I don't know why tech makes it more likely - it's not like every or even most companies are looking for the naive to work 10am-10pm daily.

mahyarm 10y ago

When I worked at a place with the average age was mid 30s and being mid 20s made me one of the youngest, we all played a lot of lunch time foosball and ping pong, left the video games untouched and were still an 'old' person friendly place.

mwfunk 10y ago

I would have a similarly visceral reaction to that line, but I wouldn't interpret it as a "keep out" sign for older developers. Rather, it's a gigantic red flag for wiser developers of any age. They're looking for people they can trick into working 60-80 hour weeks, every week. Those are probably going to be mostly recent grads in their 20s, but they're actually selecting for naïveté and the lack of a personal life rather than youth.