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Once again Tesla have made the discussion about the driver. They have put an auto-control system out in the wild that steers the car into hard obstacles at high

Once again Tesla have made the discussion about the driver. They have put an auto-control system out in the wild that steers the car into hard obstacles at high speed. Beeps to warn the driver at some stage in the preceding interval do not make this control systems failure any more acceptable. It still misjudged situation as acceptable to continue and it still drove into obstacles. Those are significant failures and a blanket statement of responsibility going to the driver isn't going to cut it.

HNaTTY 10y ago
I agree; I think it's despicable that Tesla is acting in such a defensive manner. -- "No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel. "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." -- Bruh-slow the car down then. If you're storing information that points to the fact that that the driver is not paying attention, and you're not doing anything about it, that's on you 100%. We are in the midst of a transition period between autonomous and semi-autonomous cars, and blaming the driver for the fact that the car, in auto-steer mode, steered into obstacles, is counter-productive in the long term. You need to make auto-steer not work under these conditions. The driver will quickly figure out the limits of your system as their car decelerates with an annoying beeping sound.
- mirimir 10y ago
  Right. When the AP detected road conditions that it couldn't handle, it should have reduced vehicle speed as much as necessary for handling them. Yes, it was dumb to trust AP at 50-60 mph on a two-lane canyon road. But it was also dumb to ship AP that can't fail gracefully. I do admit, however, that slowing down properly can be hard. It can even be that hitting an inside post is the best option. Still, I doubt that consumer AP would have put the vehicle into such an extreme situation.
  - dzhiurgis 10y ago
    I think it also needs AP confidence indicator, so the driver could get ready to pick up the wheel.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  > No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel. That would seem to me to be reason to steer the car to the shoulder and disengage the auto-pilot. Tesla is trying to take too big a step here and blaming the driver(s) of these cars is really really bad PR.
  - Angostura 10y ago
    > That would seem to me to be reason to steer the car to the shoulder and disengage the auto-pilot. Agreed. Or where a shoulder isn't available engage hazard flashers and drop speed to 10 miles an ho
  - lsaferite 10y ago
    Except for that one case where there is no shoulder, just a 500 foot drop to death.
    - bmer 10y ago
      Restrict auto-steering to very specific roads which have sufficient information. That's basically the vast majority of roads.
  - kirkbauer 10y ago
    How can autopilot know if it is safe to steer into the shoulder? It won't even change lanes without driver input.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > How can autopilot know if it is safe to steer into the shoulder? I would suggest that if it can't, its not ready for general use on consumer road vehicles.
      - kirkbauer 10y ago
        Isn't that one of the reasons there is still a driver? Cruise control will drive you right off of the road until you crash with no awareness of the shoulder or other traffic or anything. But it is all over the place.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  Suppose I'm driving a "normal" car. I have my hands on the wheel, but I am reading a book. I hit a tree. Is the auto-maker responsible? They advertised the car as having cruise control. Call me old, but I remember similar hysteria when cruise control systems started appearing. People honestly thought it would be like autopilot or better - and ploughed into highway dividers, forests, other traffic, you name it, at 55mph.
  - forgetsusername 10y ago
    >Is the auto-maker responsible? Why would the auto-maker be responsible for your distracted driving, and what does it have to do with cruise control? Some of the uproar about these incidents is related to the fact that Tesla marketing is implying far more automation and safety here than the technology can actually provide. And apparently it can cost lives.
    - givinguflac 10y ago
      Exactly, they shouldn't be responsible for distracted driving. Autopilot can certainly get better, but you're being willfully ignorant if you don't believe that these Tesla drivers with their hands off the wheel don't fall under distracted driving. Could autopilot improve? Yes. Is the driver at fault here for not staying alert and responsible for the car they chose to drive? Absolutely. Please show me a source for the claim that they're "implying far more automation" as everything I've ever seen from Tesla on this says hey dummy, don't stop paying attention or take your hands off the wheel.
      - epmaybe 10y ago
        Sure, the driver is at fault, but Tesla is almost encouraging this by not having a shorter threshold for keeping hands off the wheel.
      - UnoriginalGuy 10y ago
        > Please show me a source for the claim that they're "implying far more automation" It is literally called "autopilot."
- prof_hobart 10y ago
  It's certainly a major fault of Tesla's - if you know it's not safe, you've got no excuse to keep going. But the driver shouldn't be allowed to escape blame either. When your car is repeatedly telling you that you need to take control, then you should be taking control.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    If the robocar were to warn once, and then steadily slow, all drivers would learn to take over when warned.
    - prof_hobart 10y ago
      I don't disagree - like I say, none of my comment was intended to let Tesla off the hook in any way. My point was simply that the drivers who use semi-automatic cars and choose to ignore warnings to retake control need to be responsible for their actions as well.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    Incapacitated? The software needs to fail more gracefully than this when the driver is a dependency and isn't responding.
  - luca_ing 10y ago
    I've worked on highly safety related (classification ASIL D) automotive systems. There are rules about how to think about the driver. The driver is not considered a reliable component of such a system, and must not be used to guide decisions. Yes, the driver clearly was a fool, but system design should not have taken his decision into account, and come to its own conclusion for a safe reaction (e.g., stopping the car).
    - prof_hobart 10y ago
      I agree with that, and as I say I'm not attempting to defend Tesla in the slightest. My point was simply that the driver has to take responsibility for their actions in this situation as well.
- FireBeyond 10y ago
  Exactly! In this case the driver may have been at fault. What happens next time, when the driver has a stroke? "Well, he didn't put his hand on the wheel when the car told him to, it's not our fault!" Like you say, slow it down. Sure, the driver of a non-autonomous vehicle who has a stroke might be in a whole world of trouble, but isn't (semi-) autonomy meant to be a _better_ system?
Spooky23 10y ago
I would never buy a Tesla for this reason. You drive their cars, and you're always driving around with a third party with its own interests.
- bobsil1 10y ago
  Like a faulty GM ignition switch?
_pmf_ 10y ago
> Those are significant failures and a blanket statement of responsibility going to the driver isn't going to cut it. That will be the communication pattern for the next two decades; we better get used to it.
qaq 10y ago
It is about the driver you turn on a test feature (it warns you it's a test feature) and ignore all the procedures you must follow to use this not yet production feature it's your fault.

HNaTTY 10y ago

I agree; I think it's despicable that Tesla is acting in such a defensive manner. -- "No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel. "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." -- Bruh-slow the car down then. If you're storing information that points to the fact that that the driver is not paying attention, and you're not doing anything about it, that's on you 100%. We are in the midst of a transition period between autonomous and semi-autonomous cars, and blaming the driver for the fact that the car, in auto-steer mode, steered into obstacles, is counter-productive in the long term. You need to make auto-steer not work under these conditions. The driver will quickly figure out the limits of your system as their car decelerates with an annoying beeping sound.

mirimir 10y ago
Right. When the AP detected road conditions that it couldn't handle, it should have reduced vehicle speed as much as necessary for handling them. Yes, it was dumb to trust AP at 50-60 mph on a two-lane canyon road. But it was also dumb to ship AP that can't fail gracefully. I do admit, however, that slowing down properly can be hard. It can even be that hitting an inside post is the best option. Still, I doubt that consumer AP would have put the vehicle into such an extreme situation.
- dzhiurgis 10y ago
  I think it also needs AP confidence indicator, so the driver could get ready to pick up the wheel.
jacquesm 10y ago
> No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel. That would seem to me to be reason to steer the car to the shoulder and disengage the auto-pilot. Tesla is trying to take too big a step here and blaming the driver(s) of these cars is really really bad PR.
- Angostura 10y ago
  > That would seem to me to be reason to steer the car to the shoulder and disengage the auto-pilot. Agreed. Or where a shoulder isn't available engage hazard flashers and drop speed to 10 miles an ho
- lsaferite 10y ago
  Except for that one case where there is no shoulder, just a 500 foot drop to death.
  - bmer 10y ago
    Restrict auto-steering to very specific roads which have sufficient information. That's basically the vast majority of roads.
- kirkbauer 10y ago
  How can autopilot know if it is safe to steer into the shoulder? It won't even change lanes without driver input.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > How can autopilot know if it is safe to steer into the shoulder? I would suggest that if it can't, its not ready for general use on consumer road vehicles.
    - kirkbauer 10y ago
      Isn't that one of the reasons there is still a driver? Cruise control will drive you right off of the road until you crash with no awareness of the shoulder or other traffic or anything. But it is all over the place.
madaxe_again 10y ago
Suppose I'm driving a "normal" car. I have my hands on the wheel, but I am reading a book. I hit a tree. Is the auto-maker responsible? They advertised the car as having cruise control. Call me old, but I remember similar hysteria when cruise control systems started appearing. People honestly thought it would be like autopilot or better - and ploughed into highway dividers, forests, other traffic, you name it, at 55mph.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >Is the auto-maker responsible? Why would the auto-maker be responsible for your distracted driving, and what does it have to do with cruise control? Some of the uproar about these incidents is related to the fact that Tesla marketing is implying far more automation and safety here than the technology can actually provide. And apparently it can cost lives.
  - givinguflac 10y ago
    Exactly, they shouldn't be responsible for distracted driving. Autopilot can certainly get better, but you're being willfully ignorant if you don't believe that these Tesla drivers with their hands off the wheel don't fall under distracted driving. Could autopilot improve? Yes. Is the driver at fault here for not staying alert and responsible for the car they chose to drive? Absolutely. Please show me a source for the claim that they're "implying far more automation" as everything I've ever seen from Tesla on this says hey dummy, don't stop paying attention or take your hands off the wheel.
    - epmaybe 10y ago
      Sure, the driver is at fault, but Tesla is almost encouraging this by not having a shorter threshold for keeping hands off the wheel.
    - UnoriginalGuy 10y ago
      > Please show me a source for the claim that they're "implying far more automation" It is literally called "autopilot."
prof_hobart 10y ago
It's certainly a major fault of Tesla's - if you know it's not safe, you've got no excuse to keep going. But the driver shouldn't be allowed to escape blame either. When your car is repeatedly telling you that you need to take control, then you should be taking control.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  If the robocar were to warn once, and then steadily slow, all drivers would learn to take over when warned.
  - prof_hobart 10y ago
    I don't disagree - like I say, none of my comment was intended to let Tesla off the hook in any way. My point was simply that the drivers who use semi-automatic cars and choose to ignore warnings to retake control need to be responsible for their actions as well.
- cmurf 10y ago
  Incapacitated? The software needs to fail more gracefully than this when the driver is a dependency and isn't responding.
- luca_ing 10y ago
  I've worked on highly safety related (classification ASIL D) automotive systems. There are rules about how to think about the driver. The driver is not considered a reliable component of such a system, and must not be used to guide decisions. Yes, the driver clearly was a fool, but system design should not have taken his decision into account, and come to its own conclusion for a safe reaction (e.g., stopping the car).
  - prof_hobart 10y ago
    I agree with that, and as I say I'm not attempting to defend Tesla in the slightest. My point was simply that the driver has to take responsibility for their actions in this situation as well.
FireBeyond 10y ago
Exactly! In this case the driver may have been at fault. What happens next time, when the driver has a stroke? "Well, he didn't put his hand on the wheel when the car told him to, it's not our fault!" Like you say, slow it down. Sure, the driver of a non-autonomous vehicle who has a stroke might be in a whole world of trouble, but isn't (semi-) autonomy meant to be a _better_ system?

Spooky23 10y ago

I would never buy a Tesla for this reason. You drive their cars, and you're always driving around with a third party with its own interests.

bobsil1 10y ago
Like a faulty GM ignition switch?

_pmf_ 10y ago

> Those are significant failures and a blanket statement of responsibility going to the driver isn't going to cut it. That will be the communication pattern for the next two decades; we better get used to it.

qaq 10y ago

It is about the driver you turn on a test feature (it warns you it's a test feature) and ignore all the procedures you must follow to use this not yet production feature it's your fault.