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Without the 'idea' of data we couldn't even have a conversation about what interpreters interpret. How could it be a "really bad" idea? Data needn't be accompan

Without the 'idea' of data we couldn't even have a conversation about what interpreters interpret. How could it be a "really bad" idea? Data needn't be accompanied by an interpreter. I'm not saying that interpreters are unimportant/uninteresting, but they are separate. Nor have I said or implied that data is inherently meaningful. Take a stream of data from a seismometer. The seismometer might just record a stream of numbers. It might put them on a disk. Completely separate from that, some person or process, given the numbers and the provenance alone (these numbers are from a seismometer), might declare "there is an earthquake coming". But no object sent an "earthquake coming" "message". The seismometer doesn't "know" an earthquake is coming (nor does the earth, the source of the 'messages' it records), so it can't send a "message" incorporating that "meaning". There is no negotiation or direct connection between the source and the interpretation. We will soon be drowning in a world of IoT sensors sending context-or-provenance-tagged but otherwise semantic-free data (necessarily, due to constraints, without accompanying interpreters) whose implications will only be determined by downstream statistical processing, aggregation etc, not semantic-rich messaging. If you meant to convey "data alone makes for weak messages/ambassadors", well ok. But richer messages will just bottom out at more data (context metadata, semantic tagging, all more data) Ditto, as someone else said, any accompanying interpreter (e.g. bytecode? - more data needing interpretation/execution). Data remains a perfectly useful and more fundamental idea than "message". In any case, I thought we were talking about data, not objects. I don't think there is a conflict between these ideas.

alankay1 10y ago
2nd Paragraph: How do they know they are even bits? How do they know the bits are supposed to be numbers? What kind of numbers? Relating to what? Etc
- richhickey 10y ago
  It contravenes the common and historical use of the word 'data' to imply undifferentiated bits/scribbles. It means facts/observations/measurements/information and you must at least grant it sufficient formatting and metadata to satisfy that definition. The fact that most data requires some human involvement for interpretation (e.g. pointing the right program at the right data) in no way negates its utility (we've learned a lot about the universe by recording data and analyzing it over the centuries), even though it may be insufficient for some bootstrapping system you envision.
  - jonathanlocke 10y ago
    I think in the Science of Process that is being related as a desirable goal, everything would necessarily be a dynamic object (or perhaps something similar to this but fuzzier or more relational or different in some other way, but definitely dynamic) because data by itself is static while the world itself is not.
  - mmiller 10y ago
    I think what Alan was getting at is that what you see as "data" is in fact, at its basis, just signal, and only signal; a wave pattern, for example, but even calling it a "wave pattern" suggests interpretation. What I think he's trying to get across is there is a phenomenon being generated by something, but it requires something else--an interpreter--to even consider it "data" in the first place. As you said, there are multiple ways to interpret that phenomenon, but considering "data" as irreducible misses that point, because the concept of data requires an interpreter to even call it that. Its very existence as a concept from a signal presupposes an interpretation. And I think what he might have been getting at is, "Let's make that relationship explicit." Don't impose a single interpretation on signal by making "data" irreducible. Expose the interpretation by making it explicit, along with the signal, in how one might design a system that persists, processes, and transmits data.
    - richhickey 10y ago
      If we can't agree on what words mean we can't communicate. This discussion is undermined by differing meanings for "data", to no purpose. You can of course instead send me a program that (better?) explains yourself, but I don't trust you enough to run it :) The defining aspect of data is that it reflects a recording of some facts/observations of the universe at some point in time (this is what 'data' means, and meant long before programmers existed and started applying it to any random updatable bits they put on disk). A second critical aspect of data is that it doesn't and can't do anything, i.e. have effects. A third aspect is that it does not change. That static nature is essential, and what makes data a "good idea", where a "good idea" is an abstraction that correlates with reality - people record observations and those recordings (of the past) are data. Other than in this conversation apparently, if you say you have some data, I know what you mean (some recorded observations). Interpretation of those observations is completely orthogonal. Nothing about the idea of 'data' implies a lack of formatting/labeling/use of common language to convey the facts/observations, in fact it requires it. Data is not merely a signal and that is why we have two different ideas/words. '42' is not, itself, a fact (datum). What constitutes minimal sufficiency of 'data' is a useful and interesting question. E.g. should data always incorporate time, what are the tradeoffs of labeling being in- or out-of-band, per datom or dataset, how to handle provenance etc. That has nothing to do with data as an idea and everything to do with representing data well. But equating any such labeling with more general interpretation is a mistake. For instance, putting facts behind a dynamic interpreter (one that could answer the same question differently at different times, mix facts with opinions/derivations or have effects) certainly exceeds (and breaks) the idea of data. Which is precisely why we need the idea of data, so we can differentiate and talk about when that is and is not happening - am I dealing with facts, an immutable observation of the past ("the king is dead") or just a temporary (derived) opinions ("there may be a revolt"). Consider the difference between a calculation involving (several times) a fact (date-of-birth) vs a live-updated derivation (age). The latter can produce results that don't add up. 'date-of-birth' is data and 'age' (unless temporally-qualified, 'as-of') is not. When interacting with an ambassador one may or may not get the facts, and may get different answers at different times. And one must always fear that some question you ask will start a war. Science couldn't have happened if consuming and reasoning about data had that irreproducibility and risk. 'Data' is not a universal idea, i.e. a single primordial idea that encompasses all things. But the idea that dynamic objects/ambassadors (whatever their other utility) can substitute for facts (data) is a bad idea (does not correspond to reality). Facts are things that have happened, and things that have happened have happened (are not opinions), cannot change and cannot introduce new effects. Data/facts are not in any way dynamic (they are accreting, that's all). Sometimes we want the facts, and other times we want someone to discuss them with. That's why there is more than one good idea. Data is as bad an idea as numbers, facts and record keeping. These are all great ideas that can be realized more or less well. I would certainly agree that data (the maintenance of facts) has been bungled badly in programming thus far, and lay no small part of the blame on object- and place-oriented programming.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

alankay1 10y ago

2nd Paragraph: How do they know they are even bits? How do they know the bits are supposed to be numbers? What kind of numbers? Relating to what? Etc

richhickey 10y ago
It contravenes the common and historical use of the word 'data' to imply undifferentiated bits/scribbles. It means facts/observations/measurements/information and you must at least grant it sufficient formatting and metadata to satisfy that definition. The fact that most data requires some human involvement for interpretation (e.g. pointing the right program at the right data) in no way negates its utility (we've learned a lot about the universe by recording data and analyzing it over the centuries), even though it may be insufficient for some bootstrapping system you envision.
- jonathanlocke 10y ago
  I think in the Science of Process that is being related as a desirable goal, everything would necessarily be a dynamic object (or perhaps something similar to this but fuzzier or more relational or different in some other way, but definitely dynamic) because data by itself is static while the world itself is not.
- mmiller 10y ago
  I think what Alan was getting at is that what you see as "data" is in fact, at its basis, just signal, and only signal; a wave pattern, for example, but even calling it a "wave pattern" suggests interpretation. What I think he's trying to get across is there is a phenomenon being generated by something, but it requires something else--an interpreter--to even consider it "data" in the first place. As you said, there are multiple ways to interpret that phenomenon, but considering "data" as irreducible misses that point, because the concept of data requires an interpreter to even call it that. Its very existence as a concept from a signal presupposes an interpretation. And I think what he might have been getting at is, "Let's make that relationship explicit." Don't impose a single interpretation on signal by making "data" irreducible. Expose the interpretation by making it explicit, along with the signal, in how one might design a system that persists, processes, and transmits data.
  - richhickey 10y ago
    If we can't agree on what words mean we can't communicate. This discussion is undermined by differing meanings for "data", to no purpose. You can of course instead send me a program that (better?) explains yourself, but I don't trust you enough to run it :) The defining aspect of data is that it reflects a recording of some facts/observations of the universe at some point in time (this is what 'data' means, and meant long before programmers existed and started applying it to any random updatable bits they put on disk). A second critical aspect of data is that it doesn't and can't do anything, i.e. have effects. A third aspect is that it does not change. That static nature is essential, and what makes data a "good idea", where a "good idea" is an abstraction that correlates with reality - people record observations and those recordings (of the past) are data. Other than in this conversation apparently, if you say you have some data, I know what you mean (some recorded observations). Interpretation of those observations is completely orthogonal. Nothing about the idea of 'data' implies a lack of formatting/labeling/use of common language to convey the facts/observations, in fact it requires it. Data is not merely a signal and that is why we have two different ideas/words. '42' is not, itself, a fact (datum). What constitutes minimal sufficiency of 'data' is a useful and interesting question. E.g. should data always incorporate time, what are the tradeoffs of labeling being in- or out-of-band, per datom or dataset, how to handle provenance etc. That has nothing to do with data as an idea and everything to do with representing data well. But equating any such labeling with more general interpretation is a mistake. For instance, putting facts behind a dynamic interpreter (one that could answer the same question differently at different times, mix facts with opinions/derivations or have effects) certainly exceeds (and breaks) the idea of data. Which is precisely why we need the idea of data, so we can differentiate and talk about when that is and is not happening - am I dealing with facts, an immutable observation of the past ("the king is dead") or just a temporary (derived) opinions ("there may be a revolt"). Consider the difference between a calculation involving (several times) a fact (date-of-birth) vs a live-updated derivation (age). The latter can produce results that don't add up. 'date-of-birth' is data and 'age' (unless temporally-qualified, 'as-of') is not. When interacting with an ambassador one may or may not get the facts, and may get different answers at different times. And one must always fear that some question you ask will start a war. Science couldn't have happened if consuming and reasoning about data had that irreproducibility and risk. 'Data' is not a universal idea, i.e. a single primordial idea that encompasses all things. But the idea that dynamic objects/ambassadors (whatever their other utility) can substitute for facts (data) is a bad idea (does not correspond to reality). Facts are things that have happened, and things that have happened have happened (are not opinions), cannot change and cannot introduce new effects. Data/facts are not in any way dynamic (they are accreting, that's all). Sometimes we want the facts, and other times we want someone to discuss them with. That's why there is more than one good idea. Data is as bad an idea as numbers, facts and record keeping. These are all great ideas that can be realized more or less well. I would certainly agree that data (the maintenance of facts) has been bungled badly in programming thus far, and lay no small part of the blame on object- and place-oriented programming.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]