13 ms·

Well, which came first, the government or peoples views on it. When people can't openly express dissatisfaction and are censored and are subject to organised p

by okc 10y ago

Well, which came first, the government or peoples views on it. When people can't openly express dissatisfaction and are censored and are subject to organised propaganda, then it's very hard to say. Under the communist government peoples lives haven't improved: look at the great famine. So yes I disagree peoples lives have not improved because of communism in China. You ask me to pick which era of government I would like to be under. But its all the same government using propaganda the same way. So what if it is now improving the vast amount of peoples lives. What about the minority being tortued by it? My conversations with Chinese people don't show a favour with the current government. But that's not much of an indicator, under the great famine, their was probably even more vast support for the Government. That's the nature of propaganda. You say China has improved under communism. Think what it could have achieved without it. Or look back even further at what it achieved as an empire. The average Chinese persons life has improved from an absolutely horrific existence under communism to a slightly better one - might be more like what your saying. As I said before, it's the same party as always. Until propaganda is removed and freedom of speech installed, public opinion is far from fact and the average Chinese persons quality of life is as much fiction as it is belief.

mikeash 10y ago
I don't understand what you mean by "it's all the same government." If you were being oppressed and murdered and starved in 1940, it wasn't the Communist government, it was probably the Japanese Empire. In 1900 it was the old imperial government. In between you probably had the chance to be oppressed and murdered and starved by the Republic of China, who are now the government of Taiwan. I'm not defending the Chinese government nor am I denying the role that propaganda plays in shaping public opinion there (as it does everywhere). But it is not only propaganda which does this. Life in China is much better compared to how it was in 1949, and part of the public's view of the government is due to that.
- okc 10y ago
  The view that life is better is meaningless if you mean its better than mass death and torture. Portraying life as better now, is propaganda. Its a view that affirms the current government policies (even if you don't personally believe it). Propaganda is very unique in China and communism. Mainly because it is unified, enforced, systematic and backed up with violence. The communist party have been in rule so long that they are experts in it and social engineering. Taking any view on what the public think of its goverment, ain't easy or factual. It fraught in one of the most organised regimes of properganda in existence today. You can't compare that to America, where you can openly disagree with the government. Without fear of imprisonment in a work camp without trial. Basically when you say things like life is better because peoples positive views support it - I hear nothing but the torture and oppression which supports that state. And that ain't improvement. Its propaganda and control.
  - tps5 10y ago
    He's saying that life is better in concrete ways. Life expectency is higher. Medicine is more available. Wages are higher. Quality of life is higher. Less crime. More security. Those are concrete things. Can we measure them perfectly? No. But clearly things have improved in China over the past 60 years...
    - okc 10y ago
      Security and crime: Doublespeak. Wages and medicine: actually more inequality than ever. Life expectancy: scraping the barrel. These aren't concrete things. If they were we could, like you say, measure them properly. But even in the best conditions your anlysis would be linking your values to your methods. My point: measuring stuff like this in a 60 year old regime based on self perpetuation and social control is not improvement its indoctrination. For example: are wages higher by mean, mode or median. Or more simply does less crime measure the improvement of a country. I can think of several pertinent examples of regimes and dictators who were quite sucsesfull with crime. Higher life expectancy.. Well that's quite an easy one to improve when you stop starving everyone. I'm not saying all my points are 100% kosher. I'm saying improvement is a very subjective term reaking of contradiction when not simplified or taken out of context.
      - malaeisd 10y ago
        > Higher life expectancy.. Well that's quite an easy one to improve when you stop starving everyone. If that's the only reason, then why is the quality of life so much better in China than in India, the world's largest democracy? For example, - Life expectancy at birth in China is 73.5 years; in India it is 64.4 years. - The infant mortality rate is fifty per thousand in India, compared with just seventeen in China. - The mortality rate for children under five is sixty-six per thousand for Indians and nineteen for the Chinese. - Maternal mortality rate is 230 per 100,000 live births in India and thirty-eight in China. - Only 66 percent of Indian children are immunized with triple vaccine (diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus), as opposed to 97 percent in China. - The mean years of schooling in India were estimated to be 4.4 years, compared with 7.5 years in China. - China’s adult literacy rate is 94 percent, compared with India’s 74 percent. - India's literacy rate for women between the ages of fifteen and twenty-four is still not much above 80 percent, whereas in China it is 99 percent. Source: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/05/12/quality-life-india-vs-china/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/05/12/quality-life-indi...

by okc 10y ago

mikeash 10y ago

I don't understand what you mean by "it's all the same government." If you were being oppressed and murdered and starved in 1940, it wasn't the Communist government, it was probably the Japanese Empire. In 1900 it was the old imperial government. In between you probably had the chance to be oppressed and murdered and starved by the Republic of China, who are now the government of Taiwan. I'm not defending the Chinese government nor am I denying the role that propaganda plays in shaping public opinion there (as it does everywhere). But it is not only propaganda which does this. Life in China is much better compared to how it was in 1949, and part of the public's view of the government is due to that.

okc 10y ago
The view that life is better is meaningless if you mean its better than mass death and torture. Portraying life as better now, is propaganda. Its a view that affirms the current government policies (even if you don't personally believe it). Propaganda is very unique in China and communism. Mainly because it is unified, enforced, systematic and backed up with violence. The communist party have been in rule so long that they are experts in it and social engineering. Taking any view on what the public think of its goverment, ain't easy or factual. It fraught in one of the most organised regimes of properganda in existence today. You can't compare that to America, where you can openly disagree with the government. Without fear of imprisonment in a work camp without trial. Basically when you say things like life is better because peoples positive views support it - I hear nothing but the torture and oppression which supports that state. And that ain't improvement. Its propaganda and control.
- tps5 10y ago
  He's saying that life is better in concrete ways. Life expectency is higher. Medicine is more available. Wages are higher. Quality of life is higher. Less crime. More security. Those are concrete things. Can we measure them perfectly? No. But clearly things have improved in China over the past 60 years...
  - okc 10y ago
    Security and crime: Doublespeak. Wages and medicine: actually more inequality than ever. Life expectancy: scraping the barrel. These aren't concrete things. If they were we could, like you say, measure them properly. But even in the best conditions your anlysis would be linking your values to your methods. My point: measuring stuff like this in a 60 year old regime based on self perpetuation and social control is not improvement its indoctrination. For example: are wages higher by mean, mode or median. Or more simply does less crime measure the improvement of a country. I can think of several pertinent examples of regimes and dictators who were quite sucsesfull with crime. Higher life expectancy.. Well that's quite an easy one to improve when you stop starving everyone. I'm not saying all my points are 100% kosher. I'm saying improvement is a very subjective term reaking of contradiction when not simplified or taken out of context.
    - malaeisd 10y ago
      > Higher life expectancy.. Well that's quite an easy one to improve when you stop starving everyone. If that's the only reason, then why is the quality of life so much better in China than in India, the world's largest democracy? For example, - Life expectancy at birth in China is 73.5 years; in India it is 64.4 years. - The infant mortality rate is fifty per thousand in India, compared with just seventeen in China. - The mortality rate for children under five is sixty-six per thousand for Indians and nineteen for the Chinese. - Maternal mortality rate is 230 per 100,000 live births in India and thirty-eight in China. - Only 66 percent of Indian children are immunized with triple vaccine (diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus), as opposed to 97 percent in China. - The mean years of schooling in India were estimated to be 4.4 years, compared with 7.5 years in China. - China’s adult literacy rate is 94 percent, compared with India’s 74 percent. - India's literacy rate for women between the ages of fifteen and twenty-four is still not much above 80 percent, whereas in China it is 99 percent. Source: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/05/12/quality-life-india-vs-china/ http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2011/05/12/quality-life-indi...