19 ms·

Some of this is certainly my own fault (context: I'm the rude guy in the thread). There were two comments made by myself that were considered "rude": one early

by azet 10y ago

Some of this is certainly my own fault (context: I'm the rude guy in the thread). There were two comments made by myself that were considered "rude": one early on, where I actually didn't even mean to be. And my last reply was bascially a rage-quit. But I put all relevant information, academic and engineering-wise in the thread to try to convince Ruby-core to change their opinion. I replied to false assumptions and comments as best as I could. I'm also only a human and since this bug has been open for 2 years, I've used SecureRandom extensively in the past, this was a very frustrating experience for myself and all the commenters involved. I certainly do not have the most "diplomatic" approach (as a friend put it). I know that. But I'm not really sorry about that either, it's just who I am. I'm a nice guy IRL people tell me, but I can get obnoxious when people don't listen to severe security issues and always refer to upstream, have been so in quite a few projects and standards processes. I'll work on that, promise ;) Aaron

kangar00 10y ago
Every interaction I've had with the Ruby core team has involved rudeness on their part. I understand that Japanese culture is really different and that as a country they've really had horrible things done to them over the last hundred years that are inexcusable to say the absolute very least. But just like any country, there are people with great people skills and people with no people skills. The Ruby core team lacks people skills. Whether it is a result of cultural problems that are a result of terrible things happening there, I can't say, but it really does Ruby a disservice. All they need to do is listen and consider, but they don't, really.
- azet 10y ago
  I don't think it's a culture thing at all. Japanese people are usually extremely polite and sincere. I also don't think this has anything to do with their history. If you look at replies I got from Ruby-core: some people would consider them to be rude as well; I'm constantly told I do not understand what I'm doing, and I've been in engineering for more than 12 years, into crypto for more than five (and been reading cypherpunk lists since I was 15). I'm certainly not an academic cryptographer nor among the best engineers in the field, but I think I know a fair bit about the topic by now. I've contributed to many security projects, academic publications and standards processes -- this was certainly among the worst experiences I've had so far (you'd think IETF is worse, no. heated discussions all the time, but people stay focused and technical, listen to comments made by domain experts et cetera and act on them). The Ruby community even has their own acronym for being nice to other developers: MINASWAN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukihiro_Matsumoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukihiro_Matsumoto). I'm puzzled by the outcome of this discussion, but am assured by other security engineers and cryptographers that bugs they opened were treated equally badly, often ignored, even if they were non-disclosed, heavy security issues. No idea. I'm not part of Ruby-core, neither Japanese. In my travels I've encountered many cultures and peoples, Japanese are amongst the most polite and friendly people I've met. Often very shy in that regard, like many asians (this is indeed a culture thing & certainly not a bad one). Some are xenophobic, but I wouldn't say that they all are, that's just false, I've met so many open-minded Japanese that I'd never generalise in that regard. Aaron
  - nabla9 10y ago
    >I'm puzzled by the outcome of this discussion, but am assured by other security engineers and cryptographers that bugs they opened were treated equally badly, often ignored, even if they were non-disclosed, heavy security issues. If you have organization with strict good manners policy and problems arise, this kind of passive-aggressive behavior is exactly what you should expect. "company policy" and PC rules can't make people better persons. NOTE: This is not my opinion about Ruby-core team. I just want to point out that being polite does not mean that you interact well with others.
  - shevy 10y ago
    Precisely. "The Ruby community even has their own acronym for being nice to other developers: MINASWAN" No, that is not true. That was coined, if I remember correctly, by the pickaxe. Matz is nice, but how does this translate to any other bad suggestion out there? I don't understand that logic. It's also not as if it is ... impossible to make suggestions to ruby core that are accepted? Like hundreds other people manage? Why does the dude above fail? Here is the issue tracker: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/projects/ruby-trunk/issues?set_filter=1&tracker_id=2 https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/projects/ruby-trunk/issues?set_fi... You'll see a lot of assignee's done to matz, nobu, koichi etc... I mean they don't have 50 arms each and infinite time so they have to prioritize on what they work. "Some are xenophobic" That is so totally rubbish. Just go to the japanese bboy scene. They are not xenophobic AT ALL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Y75Rjl6UU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Y75Rjl6UU They are people like YOU AND ME. Assuming that there is a huge, insurmountable cultural difference is just c-r-a-p. Or do you think that every japanese loves video games? Or loves ninjas and samurai? Or knows karate?
    - azet 10y ago
      I'd usually not even consider replying to such a post as you clearly have neither read nor tried to understand my comment. I replied to a post made above, and expressed deepest sympathy for the Japanese people. While I was born in central Europe, I'd rather not be a citizen of any nation. I spend more time abroad than in the country I was born in. Speaking of which: central Europe currently has a huge resurgence of facist ideologies and xenophobia due to migrants from war-torn countries. Something which is utterly inconceivable to most people able to read a history book, given Europe's not so distant past with genocide. Unfortunately, xenophobia and right-wing sentiment is something that every democracy and thus nation faces, Japan isn't exempt from that [0] [1] [2]. (I currently live in Asia and spend a lot of time in Arabic countries, you may reconsider educating me on the subject with references to the bboy scene.) Aaron [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Far-right_politics_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Far-right_politics_in... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_extremism_in_Japan#Right-wing_extremism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_extremism_in_Japan#R... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai
- shevy 10y ago
  That is total rubbish. I never had a problem with any of them. Shugo is one of the coolest people about, similar to matz and nobu. It may be because you don't have anything meaningful to suggest or because the way you word your suggestion in a way that is not ruby-esque. The Ruby core team does not "lack" any of what you insinuate. And your ad hominem attempt to claim that something horrible must have happened - dude, stop with it. Something horrible must have happened to you. Were you an unwanted child? "All they need to do is listen and consider, but they don't, really." And they do. Testimonies to this are countless other suggestions that were made. I have been using ruby since about 13 years. As a language, ruby is awesome. Perhaps go to the php bugtracker and ask them what kind of problems they had in their childhood or something?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    As a language, Ruby is awesome. As a host for cryptographic applications, Ruby is hobbled by a very serious error that they refuse to correct.
    - azet 10y ago
      Yea, I always liked Ruby's implicitness and style of writing code. For crypto I'd prefer to use Sage or Python's cryptography.io framework (a lot of other good options for performance critical code of course).

by azet 10y ago

kangar00 10y ago

Every interaction I've had with the Ruby core team has involved rudeness on their part. I understand that Japanese culture is really different and that as a country they've really had horrible things done to them over the last hundred years that are inexcusable to say the absolute very least. But just like any country, there are people with great people skills and people with no people skills. The Ruby core team lacks people skills. Whether it is a result of cultural problems that are a result of terrible things happening there, I can't say, but it really does Ruby a disservice. All they need to do is listen and consider, but they don't, really.

azet 10y ago
I don't think it's a culture thing at all. Japanese people are usually extremely polite and sincere. I also don't think this has anything to do with their history. If you look at replies I got from Ruby-core: some people would consider them to be rude as well; I'm constantly told I do not understand what I'm doing, and I've been in engineering for more than 12 years, into crypto for more than five (and been reading cypherpunk lists since I was 15). I'm certainly not an academic cryptographer nor among the best engineers in the field, but I think I know a fair bit about the topic by now. I've contributed to many security projects, academic publications and standards processes -- this was certainly among the worst experiences I've had so far (you'd think IETF is worse, no. heated discussions all the time, but people stay focused and technical, listen to comments made by domain experts et cetera and act on them). The Ruby community even has their own acronym for being nice to other developers: MINASWAN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukihiro_Matsumoto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukihiro_Matsumoto). I'm puzzled by the outcome of this discussion, but am assured by other security engineers and cryptographers that bugs they opened were treated equally badly, often ignored, even if they were non-disclosed, heavy security issues. No idea. I'm not part of Ruby-core, neither Japanese. In my travels I've encountered many cultures and peoples, Japanese are amongst the most polite and friendly people I've met. Often very shy in that regard, like many asians (this is indeed a culture thing & certainly not a bad one). Some are xenophobic, but I wouldn't say that they all are, that's just false, I've met so many open-minded Japanese that I'd never generalise in that regard. Aaron
- nabla9 10y ago
  >I'm puzzled by the outcome of this discussion, but am assured by other security engineers and cryptographers that bugs they opened were treated equally badly, often ignored, even if they were non-disclosed, heavy security issues. If you have organization with strict good manners policy and problems arise, this kind of passive-aggressive behavior is exactly what you should expect. "company policy" and PC rules can't make people better persons. NOTE: This is not my opinion about Ruby-core team. I just want to point out that being polite does not mean that you interact well with others.
- shevy 10y ago
  Precisely. "The Ruby community even has their own acronym for being nice to other developers: MINASWAN" No, that is not true. That was coined, if I remember correctly, by the pickaxe. Matz is nice, but how does this translate to any other bad suggestion out there? I don't understand that logic. It's also not as if it is ... impossible to make suggestions to ruby core that are accepted? Like hundreds other people manage? Why does the dude above fail? Here is the issue tracker: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/projects/ruby-trunk/issues?set_filter=1&tracker_id=2 https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/projects/ruby-trunk/issues?set_fi... You'll see a lot of assignee's done to matz, nobu, koichi etc... I mean they don't have 50 arms each and infinite time so they have to prioritize on what they work. "Some are xenophobic" That is so totally rubbish. Just go to the japanese bboy scene. They are not xenophobic AT ALL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Y75Rjl6UU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Y75Rjl6UU They are people like YOU AND ME. Assuming that there is a huge, insurmountable cultural difference is just c-r-a-p. Or do you think that every japanese loves video games? Or loves ninjas and samurai? Or knows karate?
  - azet 10y ago
    I'd usually not even consider replying to such a post as you clearly have neither read nor tried to understand my comment. I replied to a post made above, and expressed deepest sympathy for the Japanese people. While I was born in central Europe, I'd rather not be a citizen of any nation. I spend more time abroad than in the country I was born in. Speaking of which: central Europe currently has a huge resurgence of facist ideologies and xenophobia due to migrants from war-torn countries. Something which is utterly inconceivable to most people able to read a history book, given Europe's not so distant past with genocide. Unfortunately, xenophobia and right-wing sentiment is something that every democracy and thus nation faces, Japan isn't exempt from that [0] [1] [2]. (I currently live in Asia and spend a lot of time in Arabic countries, you may reconsider educating me on the subject with references to the bboy scene.) Aaron [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Far-right_politics_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Far-right_politics_in... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_extremism_in_Japan#Right-wing_extremism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_extremism_in_Japan#R... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai
shevy 10y ago
That is total rubbish. I never had a problem with any of them. Shugo is one of the coolest people about, similar to matz and nobu. It may be because you don't have anything meaningful to suggest or because the way you word your suggestion in a way that is not ruby-esque. The Ruby core team does not "lack" any of what you insinuate. And your ad hominem attempt to claim that something horrible must have happened - dude, stop with it. Something horrible must have happened to you. Were you an unwanted child? "All they need to do is listen and consider, but they don't, really." And they do. Testimonies to this are countless other suggestions that were made. I have been using ruby since about 13 years. As a language, ruby is awesome. Perhaps go to the php bugtracker and ask them what kind of problems they had in their childhood or something?
- tptacek 10y ago
  As a language, Ruby is awesome. As a host for cryptographic applications, Ruby is hobbled by a very serious error that they refuse to correct.
  - azet 10y ago
    Yea, I always liked Ruby's implicitness and style of writing code. For crypto I'd prefer to use Sage or Python's cryptography.io framework (a lot of other good options for performance critical code of course).