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Is the tech bubble popping? Ping pong offers an answer
- michaelpinto 10y agoThis blew me away: "Venture capitalist Michael Cardamone, the tournament’s co-organizer, approves of young companies buying tables with venture funds. “You absolutely should,” he says. “It’s part of building culture.”"
- jychang 10y agoIt makes sense in terms of cost to benefit. A ping pong table is a few hundred dollars at most. An employee performing well is $100,000 at minimum. Little things like free food and ping pong tables actually offer a massive return on investment.
- joelrunyon 10y agoFrom the article > Startups pay up to $2,300 for a high-end Butterfly-brand table. Your point stands, but the pricing is quite different.
- duaneb 10y agoThe quote makes it clear that's the upper bound, which doesn't offer any information about the rest of the purchases, let alone the mean.
- dabeeeenster 10y agoIn London a Ping Pong table would cost around £10k/year in floorspace used.
- runholm 10y agoA company often spend some floor space on areas where employees can take a break from work to disconnect for a few minutes. Why not put a ping pong table there?
- jon-wood 10y agoBecause it then stops being a space where people can take a break, and becomes a space where two people are playing ping pong, with everyone else crammed along the wall.
- bnegreve 10y agoOnly if having a ping pong table (or free food) improve productivity. That's a rather strong assumption.
- duaneb 10y agoIs it? Employee retention certainly has strong correlation with productivity.
- fintuple 10y agoIt's certainly not linear, though; I think it will be interesting to see what's better in the long run. It's obviously impossible to measure, due to unpredictable factors such as changes in industry and market and competition. As a whole, though, I think people, especially in our industry, aren't stupid. Free food would certainly be a more competitive retention factor (than ping pong) -- barring that your company's biggest competitors in terms of hiring aren't also offering free food.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- zeemonkee3 10y agoPersonally, a decent salary & benefits, interesting projects, learning opportunities and sane management would keep me in your company for life. But, given these things are so difficult to deliver on, let's just throw them kids' games, energy bars and craft beer on tap.
- lmm 10y agoIt's not like having B makes A harder.
- zeemonkee3 10y agoNo, but it's when they are used as substitutes. "Hey, we have a dysfunctional CEO, a runway shorter than the one at Hong Kong airport, and a legacy codebase that reduces the most experienced developer to a gibbering wreck. But look - we have foosball and whiskey tasting nights!"
- cylinder 10y agoWho are these people who play ping pong during work hours? I want to finish my work and go home. If I have a break, I want to go outside and get some sun and air because I hate being inside all day. I'm not looking for a frat.
- gambiting 10y agoHmmmmm I work at a large games publisher, and it's normal that everyone plays games during lunch(1 hour lunch is normal). I usually have 30 minutes for food then play something for the other 30 minutes(currently trying to get through Dark Souls 3). I guess it's the same with ping-pong or any other in-office activity.
- hfaran 10y agoLikely people who enjoy taking a break at some point during the day and also enjoy playing ping pong? I don't see how going outside to "get some sun" is objectively any better in general.
- toomanybeersies 10y agoMy attitude to a T. My workplace is for working, it's not a playhouse.
- jonnathanson 10y ago"Little things like free food and ping pong tables actually offer a massive return on investment." Yes, provided everything else about the company is working. People are productive. The product is showing signs of fit. People believe in the founder(s)' vision and in the CEO's direction. Under these circumstances, things like ping pong tables and free meals can offer amazing ROI. But when your first few business moves are shopping for fancy digs and filling the space with ping pong tables, your priorities are questionable. Morale can't be bought with trinkets. Morale is earned with a strong sense of collective mission and product traction. The rest is icing on the cake. This distinction is often lost on people, who rush off to buy foosball tables as though the mere presence of such will trick employees into being happy and productive. It's a very '90s attitude: "People want to work for a startup that looks startupy." Well, sure. But the best people want to work for a startup that has a real shot at success, first and foremost.
- jon-wood 10y agoIts part of building a culture certainly. Believe it or not its possible to build a company culture around things other than ping pong though - the last company I was at had a culture that revolved around food, cooking, and eating together for example (they do food delivery). Probably not as good for my waistline, but it definitely brought everyone together.
- golergka 10y agoIn my current company, ping pong table is the strongest day-by-day teambuilding activity — something that different team members do together, not related to work, something that builds positive relationships between anyone. Most of interactions with some people in the company are intense and have potential for conflict (just because our respective roles), and ping pong offers us a chance to have a different kind of interaction. In previous company, it was a pool table and game room with Rocket League. In one before that, foosball. Regardless of the game, having some game that is played regularly by coworkers together really helps to build positive relationships and create a team. Definitely worth investor's money.
- TrevorJ 10y agoThat's cargo cult thinking if I've ever heard it.
- lowglow 10y agoCan we use the classic metric of aeron chair sales?
- cm2187 10y agoDo they switch to stools in bad times?
- Apocryphon 10y agoStanding desks.
- PakG1 10y agoI was going to make a crack about how standing desks could get expensive, and then I checked Amazon and was impressed.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- collyw 10y agoI just switched to a stool to discourage me from slouching.
- jmcgough 10y agohah, those have been turning up cheap on craigslist lately
- MawNicker 10y agoThey're terrible chairs. A mesh back is nice but you need a proper seat. The Aeron cuts off circulation to the legs. It's also about 5x overpriced. I just upgraded to a low end model from a no-name brand. [1] It's honestly a better chair. 1: http://www.amazon.com/Seating-Professional-AirGrid-Adjustable-Managers/dp/B000PWGZOI/ref=lp_3733721_1_5?s=furniture&ie=UTF8&qid=1462349436&sr=1-5 http://www.amazon.com/Seating-Professional-AirGrid-Adjustabl...
- Philipp__ 10y agoHad to check if I was reading Onion's article.
- varjag 10y ago“If you don’t have a ping-pong table, you’re not a tech company,” says Sunil Rajasekar, chief technology officer at Lithium Technologies, a San Francisco software startup." I really hope it was tongue in cheek quote out of context.
- wobbleblob 10y agoThis clearly illustrates what's wrong with the San Francisco tech culture: it is stuck in the 20th century, and assumes that 'tech' means white or Asian male in their 20's. Actual cutting edge tech companies order foosball tables.
- noir_lord 10y agoMaglev air hocky is where it's at. (Not sure that is a thing but it should be).
- ramatevish 10y agoIt reminds me of https://twitter.com/php_ceo/status/492089140201406465 https://twitter.com/php_ceo/status/492089140201406465
- eva1984 10y agoTheir definition of a tech company is obviously not representative. Maybe only when you are 'tech' company that handles online comments, you really need a ping pong table to justify your status.
- redcodenl 10y agoI think they've saturated the market...
- ryporter 10y agoWell, this indicator is not the worst one of all time. That record is probably still held by the price of butter in Bangladesh. [1] Seriously, all you need to read from this article is the following quote: Mark Cannice, a University of San Francisco professor, issues a quarterly index of venture-capitalist confidence. “I put more faith in venture capitalist insights and confidence,” he says, “than I would in ping-pong-table sales.” [1] http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/08/stock-market-indicators.asp http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/08/stock-market-...
- fghrthtb 10y agoI wouldn't
- arez 10y agothe graph venture capital vs.ping pong tables reminded me of this http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
- chetanahuja 10y ago"Startups pay up to $2,300 for a high-end Butterfly-brand table." Oh shit we've been doing it wrong. When PacketZoom moved to it's current office space (with a bit of spare room), we plonked down ~$130 for something like this bad boy.. http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12152583 http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productI... and put it on top of an ikea table we inherited from the previous occupants. Perfectly good playing surface with decent bounce and no obvious defects after a year of use:
- puranjay 10y agoThat ping pong table chart is largely useless
- dkopi 10y agoI always thought the main purpose of ping pong tables was to make it easy for HR to find the employees that should be let off first in case of cut backs.
- akjetma 10y agoOh, no, you're thinking of unlimited vacation policies.
- jonobird1 10y agoCorrelation or Coincidence? I get how they got to this conclusion, but I think latter.
- royroyroys 10y agoI've found it's easier to have a conversation whilst playing pool.. Maybe others are opting for this too? :)
- gambiting 10y agoThe article mentions a few companies that used to buy ping-pong tables and now they stopped - but surely you can only buy so many ping pong tables until you don't need any more? It's not like you can be buying X tables per month, forever. You will either run out of people interested in playing, or space for them - or both.
- erikb 10y agoHere's the thing though. If nobody invests based on ping pong offers but you do, then the gain for your successful bets should be a lot higher.
- mrkmcknz 10y agoBut what happens when those companies already have a ping pong table or five? I mean there's a limit to how many ping pong tables Twitter wants to load into their office.
- ElKrist 10y agoLast time I went through a series of interview to find a new job, I systematically asked to go to the bathroom. I believe male's toilet cleanliness is a good indicator of how employees perceive their workplaces. Said simply, if it's not clean then I expect employees to give poor considerations to each other or to the work they produce. You can be fooled by what recruiters tell you in the interviewing room, the perks they offer (free food, ping-pong etc.) but I think a company always show signs it can't control while you're in their precinct.
- dccoolgai 10y agoThat's a good idea. Thanks!
- steverb 10y agoFunny, I use the quality of the toilet paper as a proxy for how the company treats its regular employees.
- banku_brougham 10y agoThat works for restauraunts as well.
- gaur 10y ago> “It does make a psychological statement to the founders and employees that we’re not your father’s company” No kidding. My father's company wouldn't instill a culture where the expectation is to work 80+ hours a week and then try to (inadequately) offset it with shitty little perks like a ping-pong table.
- LoSboccacc 10y agonot really insightful, but it sparked my interest, so I'll leave this google trends search there https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=startup%20bubble%2C%20tech%20bubble%2C%20housing%20bubble&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT-2 https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=startup%20bubble%2C%... make of it what you will.
- daemonk 10y ago"Building culture" seems like an euphemism for romanticizing the workplace to squeeze more productivity out of employees without spending too much money on supplementing salaries. Interestingly, It's kinda like academia in that way. Academics romanticizing research as being some kind of virtuous or nobel pursuit to justify their shitty wages and lack of personal time. (source, I am an academic) I guess we all become devout monks of our own domain at some point in our careers until we realize the bullshit "culture" that was perpetuated, ultimately in the employer's interest.
- mathattack 10y agoIs it a symbol or an actual game that's used? I've had them in many offices but rarely seen them used. To me the ping pong table and exposed surfaces in startups reflect wood paneling in law firms. It's symbolism rather than functionality. Symbols do matter.
- snarfy 10y agoThese cultures are all artificial. I've worked at a handful of companies that all brought in the ping pong/foosball/shuffle board, and nobody plays them. It's always a ghost town. Instead, employees will bring in their own toys like card games and basketball hoops, because that's what they like. The culture happens because the employees themselves have the latitude and money to make it happen. The foosball table that they are all trying to mimic happened because some ceo/founder at a successful company always wanted one and brought one in for himself. Now it's offered as some kind of perk even though nobody likes the game. The perk should be extreme latitude and high pay. The culture will happen all by itself.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Terretta 10y agoHmm. We play the shit out of our ping pong tables. Engineers, product guys, engineering managers, department heads, everyone together, usually four up plus some onlookers. Not artificial at all. We play the card and table games at each others' homes, usually after sous vide steaks or barbecue. Our hangouts are nothing like Billions. :-)
- throwaway2016a 10y agoI'm surprised people are so negative here about ping pong tables and such. In my experience, it's true. It does build culture. In our case, Foosball is a place were employees can bond with each other that transcends business boundaries. Marketing and engineering people both like Foosball - same can not be said for a lot of other extracurriculars. We even hold tournaments during company time that at least 3/4 of the company chooses to play in. When you are spending at least 1/3 of your time every day with the same people, I think it is healthy for you to occasionally do something together that is not work. I assume the people here who head straight home also have never gone out after work for drinks with their co-workers or gone to a sports game with them, or anything like that. Foosball and ping pong provide an opportunity to do that. In fact, as a manager I often challenge my team members to a game of foosball when I get a sense something isn't right and it gives me an opportunity to chat with then 1:1 without feeling like an intervention. Should you buy a $1300 foosball table when your company is not making money? IMHO, absolutely not. But if you have a good sales month, go for it. I'd rather be in a company where people get to know each other than one where everyone sits quietly at their desk all day and leaves just as quietly at the end. Then again, I hold a different world view than some other people. I think that a FU money exit is unlikely for most, and getting a four hour a day job without a pay cut is unlikely for most, so if you're going to spend 1/3 of your life at work, a fair measure of success is if you can actually be happy while you are in the office.
- banku_brougham 10y agoI work at a big tech company. They don't provide table tennis, but every building has one or two, or more. I find that a game is better for me to get a boost than the coffee. But i still drink the coffee. Interestingly, I rarely played when I was in a business role, but ever since I switched to a tech role I've played every day. I bought two paddles as well, it's some kind of metamorphosis.