7 ms·

We have a similar problem in Scotland, I know a lot of people would love to have continued living in Scotland but can make >2 times the salary as a developer by

We have a similar problem in Scotland, I know a lot of people would love to have continued living in Scotland but can make >2 times the salary as a developer by making the move down to London. The cost of living in London is higher, but the increase in pay more than makes up for this. Granted, this is a move within the UK so it's not really a drain on the UK's economy but it leads to a more London-centric economy and, with an increasingly devolved Scottish parliament, is not good for Scotland.

mikekchar 11y ago
What's really crazy is that salaries in London aren't that high (unless you are in the financial sector). I am constantly astonished by the low salaries (for qualified programmers) offered in most parts of Britain. I suspect that you could actually get away with building a consulting firm in the country side and getting companies to offshore work from the US.
- pwm 11y ago
  I'm not familiar with how things in the US are, but in the UK and specifically in London a lot of senior tech people do contract work which pays considerably more than permanent positions.
  - kspaans 11y ago
    Contracting rates != salaried rates. You have to charge more because you don't get any benefits (vacation, sick leave, pension), and have little job security.
    - pwm 11y ago
      Re job security - In reality as long as you produce value it is just as secure as a perm job. Also, psychologically I think it is more "secure", ie. there are no surprises. Companies hire you for a reasonably well defined task and term, hence you are fully aware how much you will earn during this period as well as when you will have to find your next gig.
      - branchless 11y ago
        This is changing. The other week every LN contractor at my company was told they are getting a pay cut. Contractors have also been first to be let go. The last 10 years, yes. The next 10, not so sure.
        pwm 11y ago
        What is LN? What I've said above is of course anecdotal based on my circle's and my own experience, but when looking I was never without a new contract longer than a couple of weeks in the last 7 years. The next 10 years... I don't know, however another advantage being a contractor in my opinion is that you have more opportunity to be exposed to and learn new stuff, which helps staying current.
        branchless 11y ago
        London. Agreed, next 10 years who knows. 7 years is interesting because it's just not long enough. Pre 2008 I was surrounded by contractors all citing the benefits of the extra money. Then things thinned out. I remember one day looking up and I was sat with loads of empty seats around me and I realised just how many contractors they had let go over a period of time.
- simonbarker87 11y ago
  £35,000 salary in the UK has the same buying power (for want of a better expression as a $60,000 US salary. Adjust for "because London" and you're looking at £45/55K (not hard in London) equating to $75K - $100K. Thinking about it, I know a dozen or so people in the "poor deprived" north east of England earning over £40K who are under 30 years old so we're not all badly paid.
  - tomp 11y ago
    The difference is that Brits feel poor when they come to the US, whereas Americans feel rich when they come to the UK. Sure, PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) comparisions are important (e.g. it's easier to live in Thailand with $1000 per months than in NYC), but absolute values matter as well.
    - avar 11y ago
      Sure they matter, but only to the extent that foreign expenditures are a part of your costs. I.e. sure when you go to the US and have to buy USD with GBP you'l be at a disadvantage, or when you buy some electronics priced in USD, but how big a portion of your spending is that compared to food/rent/commuting/hobbies etc., all of which are priced in your local currency.
    - raverbashing 11y ago
      > The difference is that Brits feel poor when they come to the US, whereas Americans feel rich when they come to the UK. Are you sure about that? For a start, converting USD to GBP will make their money go not as further Might be just general British negativity, they probably feel miserable at Disneyland.
      - tomp 11y ago
        > Are you sure about that? No. I was just going off what parent said. I've seen way too little UK (mainly only London) and US (mainly only NYC) to judge myself.
      - toyg 11y ago
- zeemonkee3 11y ago
  In the UK you get ahead by going into management. Tech (or sales, or accounting, or whatever) is just a short term thing you do for a few years until you get promoted into management. We don't like to reward people for being clever; we like to reward people who tell others what to do.
  - mattlutze 11y ago
    It works similarly in Germany and other economies with strong social support systems as well, it seems. You're doing really well to break 65,000ish Eur as a developer, but get on the management track and the sky opens up.
    - zeemonkee3 11y ago
      Why would "strong social support systems" be connected to this?
      - kspaans 11y ago
        Generally speaking, you don't need to be paid as much if you don't have to pay for your own healthcare, pension, schooling for kids, etc. I believe that's what the parent is alluding to.
      - JPKab 11y ago
        I have a suspicion how this works: As an American, when I was early in my career, and had a baby and wife to support, being underpaid was super painful. Medical care, for instance, was expensive. Being able to be easily and quickly fired without a typical European justification process is another factor. You can find yourself unemployed at any time, with any justification. It all lit a fire under me to demand better pay. In fact, I got very used to doing so, and also got very comfortable with the idea of doing whatever it took to turn myself into a sought-after commodity, with a goal of being able to find a new job as fast as possible "just in case" things went south quickly. I quickly learned to recognize companies where technologists are treated as a cost center. These companies, if they are indeed technology focused businesses, are going to inevitably have terrible products, mediocre employees due to the dead-sea effect, and awful work environments. I wonder if a strong social support system would have never incentivized me to get comfortable negotiating, to invest in myself as a valuable piece of human capital in a very cutthroat, competitive market. Who knows?
fiftyacorn 11y ago
Londons great when you are young, but in my experience people eventually leave when they realise they cant afford property even though they are well paid. Plus they realise quality of life is important too, and that the work centric culture in London isnt for them
- peanut_merchant 11y ago
  I'm coming to that realisation pretty quickly
- pwm 11y ago
  I'm in the camp who moved out to the green belt but commute to the city. Best move ever :)
branchless 11y ago
London banks can pay more because whilst other companies have to make products banks make fiat money. This acts as a tax on the rest of the uk.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
pjc50 11y ago
The cost of living in London is higher, but the increase in pay more than makes up for this Are you sure? I made the opposite move for reduced cost of housing (and commuting).
- peanut_merchant 11y ago
  This definitely depends on the specific job, but in general there are more opportunities for high paying positions and a higher salary ceiling. It also depends on where you want to live within London and the kinds of activities you want to take part in. For me, I've found I have way more disposable income since the move to London as I had a huge salary increase from my previous job in Edinburgh. Although I have much, much less free time and would say I'm generally more unhappy
cmdkeen 11y ago
Odd - I'm ~6 years out of a Scottish university with a CS degree. Everyone of my class who stayed in Scotland owns their own property and has a much higher disposable income than those in London. They're in Edinburgh mind you, why anyone would choose to live in Glasgow is beyond me... Edinburgh recently topped the stakes for average disposable income in the UK - £800 per month compared to £300 in London.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dvdcxn 11y ago
  >why anyone would choose to live in Glasgow is beyond me Glasgow is a really fun city though. I'm staying here cause I like it, I don't really care that I could earn more living in that other city.
- nerfhammer 11y ago
  What's wrong with Glasgow? Just curious

mikekchar 11y ago

What's really crazy is that salaries in London aren't that high (unless you are in the financial sector). I am constantly astonished by the low salaries (for qualified programmers) offered in most parts of Britain. I suspect that you could actually get away with building a consulting firm in the country side and getting companies to offshore work from the US.

pwm 11y ago
I'm not familiar with how things in the US are, but in the UK and specifically in London a lot of senior tech people do contract work which pays considerably more than permanent positions.
- kspaans 11y ago
  Contracting rates != salaried rates. You have to charge more because you don't get any benefits (vacation, sick leave, pension), and have little job security.
  - pwm 11y ago
    Re job security - In reality as long as you produce value it is just as secure as a perm job. Also, psychologically I think it is more "secure", ie. there are no surprises. Companies hire you for a reasonably well defined task and term, hence you are fully aware how much you will earn during this period as well as when you will have to find your next gig.
    - branchless 11y ago
      This is changing. The other week every LN contractor at my company was told they are getting a pay cut. Contractors have also been first to be let go. The last 10 years, yes. The next 10, not so sure.
      - pwm 11y ago
        What is LN? What I've said above is of course anecdotal based on my circle's and my own experience, but when looking I was never without a new contract longer than a couple of weeks in the last 7 years. The next 10 years... I don't know, however another advantage being a contractor in my opinion is that you have more opportunity to be exposed to and learn new stuff, which helps staying current.
        branchless 11y ago
        London. Agreed, next 10 years who knows. 7 years is interesting because it's just not long enough. Pre 2008 I was surrounded by contractors all citing the benefits of the extra money. Then things thinned out. I remember one day looking up and I was sat with loads of empty seats around me and I realised just how many contractors they had let go over a period of time.
simonbarker87 11y ago
£35,000 salary in the UK has the same buying power (for want of a better expression as a $60,000 US salary. Adjust for "because London" and you're looking at £45/55K (not hard in London) equating to $75K - $100K. Thinking about it, I know a dozen or so people in the "poor deprived" north east of England earning over £40K who are under 30 years old so we're not all badly paid.
- tomp 11y ago
  The difference is that Brits feel poor when they come to the US, whereas Americans feel rich when they come to the UK. Sure, PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) comparisions are important (e.g. it's easier to live in Thailand with $1000 per months than in NYC), but absolute values matter as well.
  - avar 11y ago
    Sure they matter, but only to the extent that foreign expenditures are a part of your costs. I.e. sure when you go to the US and have to buy USD with GBP you'l be at a disadvantage, or when you buy some electronics priced in USD, but how big a portion of your spending is that compared to food/rent/commuting/hobbies etc., all of which are priced in your local currency.
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    > The difference is that Brits feel poor when they come to the US, whereas Americans feel rich when they come to the UK. Are you sure about that? For a start, converting USD to GBP will make their money go not as further Might be just general British negativity, they probably feel miserable at Disneyland.
    - tomp 11y ago
      > Are you sure about that? No. I was just going off what parent said. I've seen way too little UK (mainly only London) and US (mainly only NYC) to judge myself.
    - toyg 11y ago
zeemonkee3 11y ago
In the UK you get ahead by going into management. Tech (or sales, or accounting, or whatever) is just a short term thing you do for a few years until you get promoted into management. We don't like to reward people for being clever; we like to reward people who tell others what to do.
- mattlutze 11y ago
  It works similarly in Germany and other economies with strong social support systems as well, it seems. You're doing really well to break 65,000ish Eur as a developer, but get on the management track and the sky opens up.
  - zeemonkee3 11y ago
    Why would "strong social support systems" be connected to this?
    - kspaans 11y ago
      Generally speaking, you don't need to be paid as much if you don't have to pay for your own healthcare, pension, schooling for kids, etc. I believe that's what the parent is alluding to.
    - JPKab 11y ago
      I have a suspicion how this works: As an American, when I was early in my career, and had a baby and wife to support, being underpaid was super painful. Medical care, for instance, was expensive. Being able to be easily and quickly fired without a typical European justification process is another factor. You can find yourself unemployed at any time, with any justification. It all lit a fire under me to demand better pay. In fact, I got very used to doing so, and also got very comfortable with the idea of doing whatever it took to turn myself into a sought-after commodity, with a goal of being able to find a new job as fast as possible "just in case" things went south quickly. I quickly learned to recognize companies where technologists are treated as a cost center. These companies, if they are indeed technology focused businesses, are going to inevitably have terrible products, mediocre employees due to the dead-sea effect, and awful work environments. I wonder if a strong social support system would have never incentivized me to get comfortable negotiating, to invest in myself as a valuable piece of human capital in a very cutthroat, competitive market. Who knows?

fiftyacorn 11y ago

Londons great when you are young, but in my experience people eventually leave when they realise they cant afford property even though they are well paid. Plus they realise quality of life is important too, and that the work centric culture in London isnt for them

peanut_merchant 11y ago
I'm coming to that realisation pretty quickly
pwm 11y ago
I'm in the camp who moved out to the green belt but commute to the city. Best move ever :)

branchless 11y ago

London banks can pay more because whilst other companies have to make products banks make fiat money. This acts as a tax on the rest of the uk.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

pjc50 11y ago

The cost of living in London is higher, but the increase in pay more than makes up for this Are you sure? I made the opposite move for reduced cost of housing (and commuting).

peanut_merchant 11y ago
This definitely depends on the specific job, but in general there are more opportunities for high paying positions and a higher salary ceiling. It also depends on where you want to live within London and the kinds of activities you want to take part in. For me, I've found I have way more disposable income since the move to London as I had a huge salary increase from my previous job in Edinburgh. Although I have much, much less free time and would say I'm generally more unhappy

cmdkeen 11y ago

Odd - I'm ~6 years out of a Scottish university with a CS degree. Everyone of my class who stayed in Scotland owns their own property and has a much higher disposable income than those in London. They're in Edinburgh mind you, why anyone would choose to live in Glasgow is beyond me... Edinburgh recently topped the stakes for average disposable income in the UK - £800 per month compared to £300 in London.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dvdcxn 11y ago
>why anyone would choose to live in Glasgow is beyond me Glasgow is a really fun city though. I'm staying here cause I like it, I don't really care that I could earn more living in that other city.
nerfhammer 11y ago
What's wrong with Glasgow? Just curious