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Hidden motors for road bikes
- BorisMelnik 11y agoI just don't get how psychologically how these people are making this ok with themselves. I almost get human doping (I don't approve it, but I get it) but this is straight cheating.
- Nelson69 11y agoThere is next to no money in pro cycling. Sure there are a few very very elite riders that make millions, maybe 10 to 20 of those. There are also the other 160 riders that start a grand tour. Read some of the documentation USADA put out on Lance. Not about the doping, but like Dave Zabriskie was a legit world class pro, he raced the Tour, and I think they listed is salary in those early years as like $24k. Another name that comes to mind, Gilberto Simoni, as fine a climber as has been, a grand tour winner, in his earlier years he worked as a bike shop mechanic in the off season to pay his bills. There is no TV money for the teams. The team sponsorships aren't even guaranteed for any serious time. It's all about individual results in what is really a team sport. And then the best years are during the college years for everything else, close to no pros actually have college degrees or anything. Worse, I can't think of a pro that came out of college and ever did anything other than domestic racing. I mean, the team bikes are technically supposed to go back to the sponsors according to most deals but everybody just sort of knows that a lot of riders sell them to supplement their income, there are even web stores that specialize in it. Cheating is cheating, be it chemical or mechanical or whatever, but cycling (like skiing, track and field, etc) is a perfect storm for it. If you do it and don't get caught, you can get rich, like life changing rich. If you wash out, not just did you lose what little paying gig you had, but you've probably got limited options outside of cycling. I'd argue that other than the love of the sport and sportsmanship, there are a lot of cyclists in a certain age range that have no reason not to cheat one way or another.
- BorisMelnik 11y agowow really good point, never thought about the financial motivation especially the motivation NOT to be broke
- brianwawok 11y agoCalled "Mechanical Doping", and people are getting busted for it in races http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a19366/heres-how-that-cyclist-hid-a-motor-in-her-bike/ http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a19366/heres-how-... Sad sad world we live in
- 6stringmerc 11y agoI don't think it's sad, I find it evolutionarily appropriate. If there's competition, there's drive to win, and in the drive to win, there are temptations to gain an advantage, and where there are ways to get an advantage, they will be used. From my years and years of review, study, and use of PEDs I'm simply in awe of the dedication to cheating that is endemic in cycling. It's quite fascinating, at least to somebody with no qualms about integrity in that particular sport.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- rocky1138 11y agoIs there any way to scan these bikes for EMF radiation?
- rblatz 11y agoOr a nonlinear junction detector? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_junction_detector
- duskwuff 11y agoAny contact between two dissimilar metals (e.g, steel and aluminum) creates a nonlinear junction. Bicycles are full of those.
- rblatz 11y agoI thought most competition road bikes were almost entirely carbon fiber. At least in the frame. Where it sounds like you have to hide the motor, batteries, and wires.
- jzwinck 11y agoEasier than that, simply X-Ray the bikes at the finish line. Don't even announce which races will do it, that way partial enforcement can work.
- jcoffland 11y agoI'm sure all these health conscious road bikers will love being blasted with X-rays. Millimeter waves sound so much more friendly.
- jessaustin 11y agoThey'll dismount and give the bike to the x-ray tech, of course. Besides they got a bigger dose in the scanner at the airport.
- orik 11y agoI remember a Kickstarter that was popular that had a bicycle wheel with a motor in it that you could fit most bikes. I'd be far more interested in a solution like this for a daily commute, seems very elegant.
- dsr_ 11y agoThe Copenhagen Wheel -- http://superpedestrian.com http://superpedestrian.com. Pre-order phase, still.
- AstroJetson 11y agoMe too, it would make biking to work in the summer a little less sweaty, which would make the co-workers happy.
- jcoffland 11y agoOf course you could just get a motor cycle. I bet the reason you started ride to work had something to do with staying healthy.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jseliger 11y agoI remember a Kickstarter that was popular that had a bicycle wheel with a motor in it that you could fit most bikes Yeah. Kickstarter has had a lot of interesting bikes in the last year. One YC company, Vanhawks (http://vanhawks.com/ http://vanhawks.com/), came up through Kickstarter, and they've been shipping smart bikes in the last couple months. Still, prices among electrically assisted bikes remain high. For example, the Faraday electric bike: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/faradaybikes/faraday-cortland https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/faradaybikes/faraday-co... starts at $2,700. It seems like they should be less expensive, but for whatever reason few electric bikes have appeared in the U.S. for under $2K. It seems like price is holding back electric bikes more than anything else. The system discussed in the original article appears to be much more expensive than an entire electric bike.
- dabeeeenster 11y agoThere are two videos on Youtube that have been regarded by bike fans as suspicous. I will let HN readers make their own minds up! https://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE?t=3m35s https://youtu.be/8Nd13ARuvVE?t=3m35s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc I would love to hear smart people's thoughts!
- bbarn 11y agoHere's the thing. No one to date has actually been caught using one. The banned woman was caught having one, on a spare bike in the pit. She claims it's owned by a friend (who corroborated) and that her mechanics mistakenly put it in the pit, etc.. it's a pretty shaky story, but the fact remains they have never actually caught someone using one during a race. There's a large number of people who think it just wouldn't help that much. While 100 watts extra would be a game changer, the forced cadence, inability to manipulate the pedals, etc makes it potentially no help at all. As for those two videos.. Cancellara has been attacking like this for years. It's his style. He's also the 4 time world time trial (solo racing against the clock) champion, so he's exceptionally good at sustained high output power. Hesjedal and the spinning wheel.. Why wouldn't you turn off your motor on a descent is the only thing I'd say? I wouldn't put it past him, he was one of the Lance era EPO doping crew, I just don't buy it on that video. I've seen plenty of crashes in person where bikes did all kinds of weird things.
- dabeeeenster 11y agoOn a long climb, timed right as part of an attack, it would definitely, definitely be a help. The difference between the top riders is so slim that it would without question make a difference, in my mind. I think the Cancellara video looks odd, but he is super-human... The Hesjedal video is just super weird. He could have knocked the motor on during the fall. He also gets up in a really suspicious manner IMO...
- bbarn 11y agoBy the way, have you seen this? I think it just came out a week or two ago.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv5F5N6mFf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv5F5N6mFf0
- njharman 11y agoDon't bicycle races have inspections? Safety or otherwise? I'm more familiar with motorcycle and car races where there are long lists of "class", safety, and weight requirements. Would be trivial to detect either by weight or looking down seat tube.
- davidw 11y agoMessing with the height of someone's seat by pulling it out before a race would ... not be seen very well. A lot of people can tell when it's off by a few millimeters. But yeah, they are doing inspections these days.
- Grishnakh 11y agoBike seat height adjustments are very simple: the seat is mounted on a tube, which fits within the slightly larger seat tube and then is clamped. Getting the exact same position is easy: just use a Sharpie marker on the inner tube to show where it fits in the outer tube. Draw a second, vertical line across both tubes to make sure the orientation is the same.
- SixSigma 11y agothey aren't saying how bikes have minimum weight and can be made lighter than that so weight can be masked
- nl 11y agoThey are now x-raying (some) bikes at (some) races.
- bliti 11y agoI'd never would have thought to use a worm ring geared motor hidden in the frame. Reminds me of how nitrous bottles are hidden inside roll cages and cooling systems in racing cars. Cheating is an art of itself.
- LanceH 11y agoThe favorite nitrous story I heard was the guy that had it hidden in the hood of his car. The first thing they would do during inspection after he was accused would be to remove the hood.
- bliti 11y agoA scooped hood I assume? I've seen it in so many places, including inside the fuel tank. I've wired a small amount of such systems into whatever switch is available on the dashboard. Hiding the solenoids is the real issue on wet systems...Life as a street racer was fun (but stupid). :)
- arprocter 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica_GT-Four#ST205_.281994-1999.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celica_GT-Four#ST205_.2... "During the 1995 World Rally Championship season, Toyota was caught using illegal turbo restrictors at the Rally Catalunya and were given a one-year ban by the FIA. FIA president Max Mosley called the illegal turbo restrictor "the most sophisticated device I've ever seen in 30 years of motor sports.""
- bliti 11y agoMore details on the illegal modification: http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm It is quite brilliant. Think of it as a software backdoor. :)
- arprocter 11y agoThe wording is a bit confusing - IIRC it was a way to bypass the restrictor (which all cars were fitted with) to sneak more air into the engine.
- peter303 11y agoI read a good rider can sustain 250 watts for hours and peak at twice that. (power is weight dependent) So if you have an effective 100 watt assist, that can be helpful.
- alistairSH 11y ago250 watts is an output a fairly average amateur racer will produce at threshold (where threshold is their one-hour max sustained effort). The pros are significantly higher than that (estimated 350W or more for the latest batch of 1-hour records). But, an extra 100 watts for even a few seconds can make a significant difference. In cycling, staying in the draft is a major factor. If that short burst of assistance helps a racer keep the wheel of the guy in front, it conserves a lot of energy for later in the race.
- revelation 11y agoThe one hour record is actually about 470W from Wiggins. (Though not a record of power for a single hour, just distance ridden on a track in one hour. But it ends up measuring more or less the same.)
- alistairSH 11y agoDamn, the 350w was Jensie's estimated output (or maybe it was 375?). I knew Wiggins went substantially faster, but didn't realize it translated to that much more power. It's really nuts what these guys can do.
- rorykoehler 11y agoWatts per kilo is what they all optimise for in pro cycling (expect for the pure sprinters where it's no as important).
- whistlerbrk 11y agoA few other commenters have touched on it, but I'll go ahead and say it -- the UCI really needs to drop the minimum weight limit which I think will be an effective disincentive (along with more draconian life time bans). They are artificially holding back the state of the art in a way that promotes cheating (if you need to add weight to your bike to make the limit, why not a motor instead of dead weight.)
- sliverstorm 11y agoThe same thing has been said about Formula 1- the cars are power-limited, minimum-weight-limited, and so forth. But even a cursory look at racing history explains why. Group B Rally springs to mind. More power & lighter weight aren't really going to make racing that much more interesting, just more deadly. FIA has tried to shift innovation to other aspects, e.g. ruling that an engine has to last at least two race weekends (setting a floor on durability sacrifices).
- jdietrich 11y agoAll frames and wheels used in UCI-sanctioned races must pass UCI safety tests. The weight limit was not introduced for safety reasons but as a result of the Lugano Charter, which stated that technological development was inherently antithetical to the sport of cycling. C.f. the hour record. Until recently, the rules essentially stated "the hour record must be attempted on a replica of Eddy Merckx's bike circa 1972". Rules for the hour record banned streamlined helmets, aero bars, disk wheels and frames with non-round tubing. These rules were introduced directly as a reaction to the battle of engineering an ingenuity between Obree and Boardman. http://oldsite.uci.ch/imgarchive/Road/Equipment/The%20Lugano%20charter.pdf http://oldsite.uci.ch/imgarchive/Road/Equipment/The%20Lugano...
- sliverstorm 11y agoRight, I'm not saying it's specifically about safety, rather that a battle of technology was decided for some reason to be worse than the added marginal excitement of lighter bikes. In F1 that reason was (originally) safety, in bicycling it's something else.
- pmontra 11y agoThis is another method: wheel accelerated by induction, no gears, no noise. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/electromagnetic-wheels-are-the-new-frontier-of-mechanical-doping-claims-gazzetta-dello-sport/ http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/electromagnetic-wheels-are-t...
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoand an "automatic transmission" that engaged when on a hill or sensed pedal tension could eliminate the switch! Then it would be truly invisible.
- davidw 11y agoBy the way, since this thread seems to have attracted the interest of the HN bike community, if anyone's ever here in Bend, Oregon, look me up. Always happy to go for a bike ride - road or MTB. No motors, please.
- bartkappenburg 11y agodutch bike sellers see an increase in sales in hidden motors after an athlete was caught: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&tl=en&u=http://nos.nl/artikel/2090793-verkopers-van-fietsmotortjes-merken-femke-effect.html%3Fnpo_cc%3Dna%26npo_rnd%3D391192662%26npo_cc_skip_wall%3D1&usg=ALkJrhjY16MaBIlRukms4E_w2zXxF7Jorg https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&...
- julie1 11y agoQuestion : why do people cheat? Saying it is in the human nature is laughable. I see no one cheating at being poor sick, handicapped or being lazy. People only cheat because they don't care about winning for themselves. They have no personalities and are lost in the recognition of a mindless crowd as a substitute to self esteem. We have to focus society on individual realization to fight efficiently against hidden motors. Technical means of cheating are just a side problem. Maybe we should forbid professional competition to remove the incentive of cheating.
- awqrre 11y agoYou cheat if you know that you have no chances of winning otherwise?
- julie1 11y agoExactly. Is it because education make people lack of confidence in themselves or do people adapt a rigged games? My opinion is some kids especially introverted one lacking of self confidence are put in a stressful competition early and education/society advocate early results on strong competition. The race for the elite schools being at kindergarden. The culture of results coupled with a rigged system (the system enable institutional cheats for some) result in the conviction of being right to fight the system back by compensating for the one considering themselves unlucky. Our education is clearly creating the cheaters at my opinion. Corrupting the expectations of kids about progress, merit, hard work and replacing it by saying only the result matters. The funny part is all these kids having paying loans for studies that enslave them not only in debt but also breaking their mind. No educated kids have been suing universities/banks for having scammed them by giving them false information to engage them in life long debts. Smart kids are not smart. Education has broken bright spirits.
- wkimeria 11y agoAgreeing with people who comment just how important watts are in cycling. I used to race (never made it out of CAT 5 cause I suck on hills, though I’m a very strong sprinter but I hate crits). Even a few watts can make a difference. Its the difference between being dropped when someone attacks on a climb and being able to hang on and recover. Biking is the ‘Cold Equations’ (old Sci-fi story that illiustrates the cruel implacability of science) of sports. The standard unit of currency in cycling is Watts per Kilo, essentially, now many watts per kilo you can maintain at your FTP (Functional Power Threshold). If you look at a chart of cyclists from CAT-5 (the lowest racing category, all the way up to Grand Tour Contender (realistic chance of winning one of the big 3 races, Giro, TDF or Vuelta), it ranges from about 1.8- 2.0 for an untrained casual cyclist, 2.5 Watts/Kg for a CAT 5 to 6.7 Watts/Kg for Grand tour contenders (The Lance Armstrong’s, Alberto Contador, Cadel Evans). 6.7 is the magic number. http://www.americanroadcycling.org/articles/PSL/WiddersHump/WattsSpeed.htm http://www.americanroadcycling.org/articles/PSL/WiddersHump/... It is really hard to explain just how much different from you and I GC contenders are. I weight 70-75 Kg. At my fittest (down to 65 kg), I was probably putting out 3.5 watts per kilo (wasn’t racing at the time yet). You have 2 variables to play with, power, and weight. This is why pro cyclists are thin, and GC contenders cadaverously thin, especially before the big races. These guys weight 138 lbs (62 kilos) with an FTP of 420+. I’ve met Alberto Contador, I’m not a big guy (I’m 5,11), but next to him I seemed like a giant. I cannot even explain how insane their power figures are. When you’re riding at the pro level, especially at the Grand Tours, everyone you are riding with is a genetic freak (this is why EPO will not turn Joe six pack into the next Lance Armstrong). At my fittest, I once rode with a woman who’d come 3rd in the U.S Nationals. And she totally shredded me. She was out for an easy/medium ride, I was hanging on, seeing dots in my peripheral vision and feeling like I was about to puke my heart out. And this was the easy part of the ride on a flat. Once we got to a hill I was dropped like a hot potato. This is also why you don’t accept invitations from strangers at parties that start ‘Hey, your wife tells me you ride. My friends and i are going on a ride tomorrow. Wanna join us?' Someone else posted about riding with a cyclist who rode the TDF and who never finished because he absolutely sucked at riding (this is true of a lot of cyclists whose goals is to support their GC contender at all costs even if it means destroying themselves and their chances). It was a hilly competitive ride with the local fast guys. And he dropped them on the first long climb, and he wasn’t even going hard. Being a TDF rider who sucks in the climbs > 99.9995 of cyclists. It’s all relative. At that level, the gap between the winner and the also runs can come down to the smallest difference. Tyler Hamilton lost the Giro because he bonked on the final climb. He had an energy gel in his pocket, but forgot to eat, and by the time he did, it was too late. All it takes is a few watts so a motor that can even give a cyclist an extra 5-10 watts is huge. This is why cyclists wear skin suits and even go to ridiculous lengths (apparently, on a flat 40K TT, shaving your legs vs not can gain you 1-2 seconds). Bike innovations, especially for aerodynamic frames are measured in watts saved. This is also why there is a lower limit on the weight of bike frames in UCI races (about 15 lbs), because frame makers would be tempted to make even lighter bikes to the point of danger cause a few lbs when you are already at 3% body fat can make a difference (an aside, for most cyclists, weight frame is overrated. Saving 3 lbs on the frame is much more expensive than shaving 3 lbs off your weight, or even 20 lbs). My road bike weighs 16.5 lbs, I’d be better served by losing 40 lbs off my body. Also, no one is going to use this motors for flashy efforts that are obvious. All you need is to save 20-30 watts on a long stage, and arrive at the base of a climb fresher than your competitors, and then use it again when needed on the climb.
- awqrre 11y agoThis competitor claimed her motor equipped bike belonged to a friend [1]... 1. http://www.businessinsider.com/bike-investigated-technological-fraud-cycling-world-championships-cyclocross-2016-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/bike-investigated-technologic...
- 9erdelta 11y agoI gave up on paying any attention to the sport of cycling years ago. Everybody who was winning or did something awesome turned out to be cheating. Seems like that hasn't changed at all.
- dheera 11y agoLet's forget about cheating on races. I want one for my commuting bicycle so it still looks like a normal bicycle so thieves won't be interested in it.
- frik 11y agoYou may want a moped. And there are eletric powered mopeds as well (they aren't that expensive).
- brianbolger 11y agoThe guys at GCN have an interesting video on the practicalities of using one, but conclude it's unlikely anyone in the Pro peloton are using it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv5F5N6mFf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv5F5N6mFf0